An old blokes perspective.

pixiepearls wrote in post #12962913
If I post a picture for some feedback, if I have no idea who is replying why would I value their opinion? (Remember I said I DO listen to that feedback but I don't always trust it). Sometimes I get really lucky and get some really useful replies from complete strangers, but I find I get better advice and I TRUST that advice more when I know the source better.

I will look at the website in the sig or look for pictures posted on here to get a feel for their work.

There are an awful lot of people on here who are really active in the gear threads and Buy & Sell without a single image posted.

neil_r wrote in post #12963020
I will look at the website in the sig or look for pictures posted on here to get a feel for their work.

There are an awful lot of people on here who are really active in the gear threads and Buy & Sell without a single image posted.

One of my biggest pet peeves on POTN...

Followed closely by those who spend 99% of their time prognosticating on what the industry will / should do because the specific piece of kit they want doesn't exist. If they spent just half that time actually shooting, they'd probably find they haven't even scratched the surface of the stuff they actually do have.

I agree 100% with Neil, especially about people defending information that's flat out wrong. That's the main reason I left the photography forum I was at before, because someone got into an argument with me on ISO and everyone was backing him up on it. This isn't a space for me to vent, but it was just infuriating.

I love POTN because the mods do an amazing job of culling the nonsense, which is quite a task because this forum is gigantic. We still have our fair share of measurebaters and gear fanatics, but for the most part this forum is much more balanced than anywhere else I've been.

Almost every 'social online circle' has a group of people who think they're above others. Throw on top of that the chance someone's tone can be misunderstood because you're communicating through text, and things can get ugly very quickly. I try to take it all with a grain of salt, because the true experts make it known very quickly.

(And 'Flash Master' or not, I still have to thank Curtis for helping me pick out my flash meter, as he's one of many humble and amazing people on here)

Yeah, well...

I really have no complaints when it comes to the state of modern photography or the Web, simply because I have so much to deal with on a personal level that I'm just into photography and places like this for the positive benefits! And at 60 I can use all of those I can get!

I don't have the "Pro photographer" background that some of you guys have and I never even used an SLR until I got my first DSLR and so am not so inclined to wax nostalgic for the film days, so...and, I don't pretend to be an expert in anything, especially in photography, like I said I'm just in it for the positive benefits!

70 here, and been into the hobby and Canon since 1962. However, certainly do not long for the film days. Technology is what keeps me young...

FlyingPhotog wrote in post #12963067
One of my biggest pet peeves on POTN...

Followed closely by those who spend 99% of their time prognosticating on what the industry will / should do because the specific piece of kit they want doesn't exist. If they spent just half that time actually shooting, they'd probably find they haven't even scratched the surface of the stuff they actually do have.

A very sad truth. Even sadder is the fact they know nothing of photography, so their demands are oft times for things are either physically impossible, financially impractical or would require the services of a tracked transport device just to support the weight of the proposed wonder. (i.e. the fabled 1-1000mm f/0 Super Zoom Telephoto with 10 stop image stabilization and 37 built in special effects filters ranging from polarizer to reverse graduated neutral density)

Then you can toss in the ones that don't even know the basic terms of the craft. (What aperture did you use? Dunno what that is....I just turned knobs and pushed things until I got this way cool picture. Oh, by the way, I'd like to take another shot just like it, but I don't remember what I did, can you set it up for me?)

Woolburr wrote in post #12963839
A very sad truth. Even sadder is the fact they know nothing of photography, so their demands are oft times for things are either physically impossible, financially impractical or would require the services of a tracked transport device just to support the weight of the proposed wonder. (i.e. the fabled 1-1000mm f/0 Super Zoom Telephoto with 10 stop image stabilization and 37 built in special effects filters ranging from polarizer to reverse graduated neutral density)

Then you can toss in the ones that don't even know the basic terms of the craft. (What aperture did you use? Dunno what that is....I just turned knobs and pushed things until I got this way cool picture. Oh, by the way, I'd like to take another shot just like it, but I don't remember what I did, can you set it up for me?)

Now Woolburr. Surely you don't expect these Johnny-come-lately entitlement-era shutter-pushers to actually take the time to learn the craft of photography.

Sad to say, the modern artificially intelligent camera has produced a generation of shooters where that is the only intelligence in the equation.

20droger wrote in post #12963933
Now Woolburr. Surely you don't expect these Johnny-come-lately entitlement-era shutter-pushers to actually take the time to learn the craft of photography.

Sad to say, the modern artificially intelligent camera has produced a generation of shooters where that is the only intelligence in the equation.

As a new photog, it seems like the odds are stacked against me when it comes to not being perceived as a Johnny-come-lately entitlement-era shutter-pusher. And that's fine ... respect is earned.

But is the desire to not be a JCLEESP () enough to put me on the right path? What makes a newbie "legit" in your eyes?

Rob, To be honest there is some great, imaginative and inspiring work being done by people who are both young and new to photography. No one, no matter how old and grumpy they are can have an issue with progress and new photographers coming along. The issue I have is with the people who rely more on serendipity or short cuts to get the results that they actually have no idea how or why they are achieved.

The other element that does no one any favours are the people armed with a little knowledge and then post on here as if they were the oracle, and when someone legitimately tries to widen the debate and offer a different view the thread spirals downwards very rapidly.

rpaul wrote in post #12964138
As a new photog, it seems like the odds are stacked against me when it comes to not being perceived as a Johnny-come-lately entitlement-era shutter-pusher. And that's fine ... respect is earned.

But is the desire to not be a JCLEESP () enough to put me on the right path? What makes a newbie "legit" in your eyes?

A willingness to admit you're new at something and are willing to listen and learn is a big step forward from "noob-ness" in any community (real or cyber.)

"Proof of Purchase" is another way to show you're serious. What I mean is, don't be one of the gear whores who don't have a website and never show an image. Create and be willing to share your creations. Develop a little bit of thick skin and don't take it personally if one person decided they don't "get" your vision and says so vociferously (especially if they don't have a website or don't ever post images .. See? It goes full circle.)

Definitely agree with everything said so far.

One thing I'd add is that there are now two very distinct camps on forums like this... the photographers and the gear collectors. It never used to be that way. I mean, before a few years ago, who in their right mind would spend ungodly amounts of money on acquiring the entire L catalog just to "have it".

I notice lots of people now that post a lot... and buy and sell things like crazy... yet, never post an image. ever. Look at their sig (if it's true - although in a lot of cases I believe it is) and it is full of about $20k worth of lenses. Yes, still.. no photos.

Ha!

Are the newbies who think they know it all any worse than the old timers who think they know it all? I see advice administered on here by 10k++ posters who are certain that their way is the only way. Often times they don't bother to read the OPs question because their response is blatantly wrong for that situation. Canned responses without bothering to read the post. Experience is a great teacher but if you're wanting to share that wealth of knowledge at least take the time to read the question. I guess that's how they got so many posts...

Point is that there are faults on both ends of the experience level. Being smug about your knowledge is a sure way to offend and drive away someone genuinely wishing to learn. Adamantly telling everyone that they have to buy the same equipment as they do is a sure way to discredit yourself. I see just as much bad coming from the old line as I do from the new.

Anyone can learn from anyone else if you open your mind and don't condemn those who aren't just like you. Sometimes that takes overlooking personalities that don't quite mesh with your own. Sometimes it takes not thinking you already know it all even if you do know a bunch. Explaining to someone why you think they are wrong usually has better results than calling them a newb, idiot, whatever... Complaining about them in a thread does even less.

I'd like to address each section...

TheReal7 wrote in post #12962524
My opinion is that with high quality digital camera gear becoming more and more affordable to the general public more and more of them are getting into photography. What you get is a flood of people with a "high end" camera and now think they are professional. Simply by JUST buying a camera. They have no understanding of composition, light, colour, mood, energy, anything.

That was true back in the 1980's when the Canon AE-1 was advertised like crazy.

TheReal7 wrote in post #12962524
Then they download some presets for lightroom and start clicking like crazy having no real understanding of what they're doing. Then, they post those images online to thousands of other "photographers" with the same level of unknowledge and get a flood of "great shot" comments.

THIS is the crux of the difference. With Canon AE-1 and film, to a degree the machine printing took care of a number of exposure errors of some modest magnitude. Now, with RAW and post processing tools, the product of even an idiot can be recovered to an acceptable level. And with the LCD on back, you do not have to get it right the first time, simply blunder and adjust until the photo looks good and/or the histogram is somewhere in the middle. Dynamic screw up, resolved in real time.

TheReal7 wrote in post #12962524
Never ever learning what they did wrong or how they can improve because everyone they "associate" with has nothing to bring to the table. This is also a snowball effect as it spreads. This happens not only in photography. Just look at the music industry and the "artists" of today.

The same, but different. In the days of film, groups might gather, show each other some select slides, and critique each other. A lot of the critique was 'boilerplate', like portraiture judging would dislike seeing two catchlights in the eyes, an some was truly beneficial, but a lot of it was mere one person's taste vs. another's. You had to find a group to join, and the schedules needed to be suitably matched to permit you to participate.

Now we have the web. You can share photos on critique and sharing forums on places like POTN and many others. Once you find a forum, you merely have to post the photos and get lots of replies and read them when it is convenient. Like the film clubs, a lot of the critique was 'boilerplate', like portraiture judging would dislike seeing two catchlights in the eyes, and some critique is truly beneficial, but a lot of it was merely one person's taste vs. another's.

Photography is an art, after all. It is not a rigidly defined set of standard which everyone has to adhere to. You can take what technically is a screw up, but done intentionally it is creativity in action. So who is to judge such photos?...other than by virtue of what I like vs. what you like.

TheReal7 wrote in post #12962524
The terms "respect" and "common sense" are a thing of the past too and that is why you get the rudeness from others. Lack of knowledge, lack of common sense and lack of respect. Welcome to the World today.

That was true 40 years ago, too, when the earlier generation judged the newer generations actions and attitudes. Is it going downhill, compared to what was the status before? Depends upon who is answering the question, but I doubt the current generation of youth think anything bad about themselves...come to think of that, that same statement is true going back countless generations!

TheReal7 wrote in post #12962524
Another thing I've noticed, and this happened with another website, is once the dilution has started (ie unknowledgeable users giving untruths and misinformation as facts to others) the damage is done. That is when the real knowledgeable people leave the site and go elsewhere looking for more knowledgeable photogs.

As long as a core group continues to TRY to educate, and as long as the majority of newcomers do not degrade the quality of the web site with bad attitude, bickering, and judgmental responses, we can keep POTN a cut above many other web forums, and maybe make the undesirables go away for their flame wars!

The advent of the digital age means that people can throw up photos, good/bad/indifferent on the internet. Instant emails of photos to families, friends, clients, facebook, you name it.

I am not that old (nor am I young), and back then you needed a lot of dedication to go out with your old camera + roll of film, compose your photos, and not arse it up - there was no delete and retry it then.

After that, if you were a true hobbiest, you would have your own dark room. Then have to learn all the processes to get your final product. You were a nerd, but you were one of a few.

Now you can get the camera to do everything for you, the software today means, you don't even have to get it right and it can be fixed, et voila, it is up on the internet in 10 minutes from taking the photo if you want. You have to keep up with technology now.

As for everyone giving advice to one another, didn't you know, that once you buy anything today, you're immediately an expert

Eventually, after you get "advice" from people, you actually tend to realise those who know what they are talking about, and those that do not. So I know, when someone tells me something about my photos, what they mean, and how much weight it carries.

Wilt wrote in post #12964355
I'd like to address each section...



That was true back in the 1980's when the Canon AE-1 was advertised like crazy.



THIS is the crux of the difference. With Canon AE-1 and film, to a degree the machine printing took care of a number of exposure errors of some modest magnitude. Now, with RAW and post processing tools, the product of even an idiot can be recovered to an acceptable level. And with the LCD on back, you do not have to get it right the first time, simply blunder and adjust until the photo looks good and/or the histogram is somewhere in the middle. Dynamic screw up, resolved in real time.



The same, but different. In the days of film, groups might gather, show each other some select slides, and critique each other. A lot of the critique was 'boilerplate', like portraiture judging would dislike seeing two catchlights in the eyes, an some was truly beneficial, but a lot of it was mere one person's taste vs. another's. You had to find a group to join, and the schedules needed to be suitably matched to permit you to participate.

Now we have the web. You can share photos on critique and sharing forums on places like POTN and many others. Once you find a forum, you merely have to post the photos and get lots of replies and read them when it is convenient. Like the film clubs, a lot of the critique was 'boilerplate', like portraiture judging would dislike seeing two catchlights in the eyes, and some critique is truly beneficial, but a lot of it was merely one person's taste vs. another's.

Photography is an art, after all. It is not a rigidly defined set of standard which everyone has to adhere to. You can take what technically is a screw up, but done intentionally it is creativity in action. So who is to judge such photos?...other than by virtue of what I like vs. what you like.



That was true 40 years ago, too, when the earlier generation judged the newer generations actions and attitudes. Is it going downhill, compared to what was the status before? Depends upon who is answering the question, but I doubt the current generation of youth think anything bad about themselves...come to think of that, that same statement is true going back countless generations!



As long as a core group continues to TRY to educate, and as long as the majority of newcomers do not degrade the quality of the web site with bad attitude, bickering, and judgmental responses, we can keep POTN a cut above many other web forums, and maybe make the undesirables go away for their flame wars!

Can't argue with you Wilt, but I will say I feel there is one major difference from the noobs of today vs the "olden days". Money! Now, JCL can buy a camera and that is where the expenses ends. They got their entry level dSLR and el cheapo lens and think they are a pro. Back in the film days, you have to buy the film develop it and get prints. Now, today, no real costs unless you pursue things further. Yes, you still have the wannabees but today's wannabees have much less to invest. So that pool of wannabees has exponentially increased compared to then. At least that is how I perceive it. Then again, what do I know? haha I am still a "noob" in my eyes and have a ton to learn even though I am technically a professional photographer. haha