7D Soft Images

www.iggybytes.com

90% of the pics in the above site is from the 7d. I dont have the 17-55mm but i've tried a bunch of lenses on the 7d some are listed below on my sig.

When you mentioned soft is it the entire frame? or is it the actual focus point? Maybe its a DOF issue? If it is the battery test above should confirm this.

TeamSpeed wrote in post #13035856
That, I am sorry to say, is completely inaccurate. The 17-55 is very, very capable of very, very sharp images wide-open and can go head to head against the L's in this range (24-70, 24-105). That lens, coupled with the 10-22, are the two reasons many people end up getting a crop body.

Don't go dismissing the lens just yet, let's just take a look at some test images to see where the issue lies.

+1...I agree the 17-55 is very sharp and easily as sharp as my 24-70L and 24-105L lenses. The only reason I gave up the 17-55 was because I received the 5D Mk II as a gift and didn't want to make the mistake of accidently mounting and EF-s lens on the 5D. So I went to the 24-70L with the 5DmkII. I kept my 10-22mm until I saved up some extra cash to replace it with the 16-35L to give my 5DmkII, the same coverage I used to have with the 10-22 and 17-55 on the 40D and 7D.

I will say this, while I have struggled with my 7D's image quality, my concerns are often dismissed by folks who tell me I don't know how to use the autofocus. But, a friend who shoots with his own 7D semi professionally and has seen my images is convinced that it's more an issue of unrealistic expectations. I can read and I'd like to think I pretty well understand how AF works so I'm leaning toward my friend's assessment of my expectations. I agree however that the OP really needs to post some of his images if he want's to get the most out of his query. Fact is, most complaints about cameras/lenses being soft or out of focus really are just a case of user error. But, you can't know that for sure without actually seeing the images.

TeamSpeed wrote in post #13035856
That, I am sorry to say, is completely inaccurate. The 17-55 is very, very capable of very, very sharp images wide-open and can go head to head against the L's in this range (24-70, 24-105). That lens, coupled with the 10-22, are the two reasons many people end up getting a crop body.

I have to agree with this... Your lens most likely isn't the problem, unless there's something fundamentally wrong with it. In terms of image quality, the 17-55 is one of the most "L-like" EF-S lenses available.

Yes, I'd suggest using some MFA on the lens. This is easier to do with a prime than a zoom... but you likely can fine tune it quite a bit. You should test it at two or three focal length settings and arrive at how much MFA you need to dial in for each. Then you'll probably have to decide whether to average those for a single setting to use with the lens, or might bias it a bit toward whatever focal length you use the most with the zoom.

Canon recommends a different method of doing MFA, that doesn't involve actually taking any photos. They suggest using the more accurate but much slower Contrast Detect focus in Live Mode to calibrate the usual Phase Detection mode. The only caveat, it can only be used with a lens that has a visible focus distance scale.

Start by setting up a flat target with lots of detail, perfectly parallel to the sensor ("film") plane of the camera. A newspaper taped to the wall works pretty well. I've used a wooden fence with a lot of detail. It should be 50X the focal lenth of the lens from the camera to the target (so about 8 feet for a 50mm lens: 50 x 50 = 2500. 2500/25.4mm per inch = 98.425. 98.425/12 inches per foot = 8.2 feet).

Put the camera on a tripod, at the right distance for the focal length being tested and with the sensor plane kept parallel to the target. And, if possible, use a remote release to activate focus (half press of the shutter release... if using Back Button Focus normally, you might want to switch back temporarily to the standard method of focus activation). If don't have a remote release, be careful and gentle to not to bump the camera while pressing the button (of your choice) to activate AF.

Select the center AF point only, in One Shot mode, and use that to focus on the target. Then, while being careful not to bump the camera or change focus on the lens, switch to Live View and activate focus again. Keep an eye on the lens' distance scale. If it moves at all, you need to dial in some MFA to adjust it. Retest after doing that. Repeat as necesary, changing the amount of MFA a little at a time until there is no movement of the distance scale at all.

Again, with a zoom you will want to repeat this process at several different focal lengths (might want to temporarily tape the zoom ring of the lens, so it stays at that focal length during calibration). When the focus distance scale no longer moves at all (or as little as possible if you have to average some settings with a zoom), you will have set the lens as accurately as possible.

It might then be a good idea to take some test shots of a target like the batteries shown above or one of those angled calibration scales, examining the images on your computer monitor, just to confirm the setting. Use the lens at it's max aperture to get as shallow depth of field as possible. With some lenses, the max aperture isn't the lens' sharpest, so take that into consideration when viewing the images. Here we are simply using MFA to fine tune of focus accuracy. Later, taking images with the lens you may want to use a more optimum aperture. Here you are just using the largest aperture to get minimum DOF, to evaluate focus accuracy.

If you cannot adjust this pretty well using the range available within the MFA feature, the camera and/or lens might need to be sent to Canon Service for greater calibrations.

One last thing regarding MFA... it's camera body specific, but only lens model specific. So, for example, if you were using two or three different 17-55mm, any adjustment you dial into the camera with MFA will have the same amount of calibration applied on any copy of that lens that's attached to it. On the other hand, two different cameras might end up with quite different amounts of calibration with any particular lens used on both of them.

Beyond calibrating your focus with MFA, there are several things... But first understand that the 7D is designed with fairly experienced users in mind, people who normally would want to take a lot of control over their images.

Yes, it uses a strong Anti Alias filter and requires more sharpening than earlier and other models. This is not a "mistake" of Canon's, putting too strong a filter on the camera. It's deliberate, to reduce chance of moire occuring when shooting certain subjects with strong patterns with such a high pixel density sensor. Pretty much all DSLRs use an AA filter, but it varies how strong they are, and how effective. For example, 5D series cameras have considerably less densely crowded sensors, even the current Mark II model that captures more megapixels than the 7D. Cameras with weaker AA just need less sharpening of their images, straight from the camera.

One option, you might want to shoot JPEGs for a while. If you do, the initial sharpening will be done in-camera. Choose a Picture Style with fairly strong sharpening. You can go into any of the Picture Styles and set sharpening higher, too.

If you want to stick with RAWs instead, that's cool. You can use Canon Digital Photo Pro (DPP) and it will use whatever sharpening parameter you've set in the camera during RAW conversion, or you can change it at that time if you wish. Or, using a thrid party software such as Photoshop (etc.), just set the default sharpening higher in your RAW converter. That's possible with most RAW converters. Going from 50D to 7D crop sensor cameras two years ago, I also found the images a bit soft. I now tend to use 75 or 85% more sharpening now, on average, with 7D. The detail is there, you just have to do a bit more to find it in your 7D images.

Also watch your apertures. Any lens softness wide open will be more apparent. At the other end of the aperture range, you can see more diffraction effects at the smaller apertures. All this varies from lens to lens, of course, but in general I try to stay in the f2.8 to f11 range, when I'm looking for top sharpness. Some f2.8 zooms I stop down to f3.5 or f4, and if I'm looking for the absolute minimum diffraction I might use no more than f8.

I also agree, try to use somewhat higher shutter speeds whenever possible. Don't be afraid to bump up ISO. Depending upon how the image will be used, I will go to 3200 with my 7Ds at times. Even higher on rare occasions. The optimum shutter speeds on the camera are a bit higher... It's not very forgiving of even a little camera shake. For typical daylight shooting I use 400 and 800 a lot of the time. Better to use a "too high" ISO with 7D, than too low! My "normal" ISO is probably 400 with these cameras, where I was regularly using 100 and 200 with earlier models. If anything, 7D has slightly more noise at lower ISOs, compared to earlier, lower resolution models. There is some noise at higher ISO, but somehow it's not as problematic... It might be more random or something.

Just watch out for accidental underexposure. If you need to add any exposure to your images during post processing, it will amplify noise with 7D, as much as and perhaps more than with other models.

Also, don't just rely on what you see on your computer monitor. Besides "pixel peeping" at silly magnifications (which you say you aren't doing), I think these images are stretching the limits and capabilities of the typical LCD monitor. I was using an "HD" consumer grade monitor and recently switched to a more graphics oriented IPS screen. That helped me a lot.

But also, make some prints. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at the actual output. Prints are best evaluated on good, smooth, matte paper with a pretty good photo quality printer. When you resize and do final sharpening of the images for print, I think you will see a really good result. The same is true when images are sized down and final sharpening is applied for digital image pisplayed on the Internet, too.

Focus is more critical with such a high resolution camera, too. I've experimented with all the AF modes on 7D, and find some uses for all of them at different times. But I mostly use a simple Single Point, manually selected, usually shooting in AI Servo and using Back Button Focusing. Zone Focus, Expansion Points, and certainly All Points will leave it up to the camera to decide where to focus. That might not be where I want it to focus. I tend to use Single Point/Manually Selected most of the time for that reason. Spot Focus is even higher precision, quite useful at times, but slower focusing so not usable all the time. In modes other than Spot Focus, the actual AF sensor is somewhat larger than the box illustration in the viewfinder, and seems to be mostly biased slightly above the box.

Stick with it... There's a fairly steep learning curve to getting the best out of 7D... But it can be a great camera in the end.

That is one heck of a good post!

ebann wrote in post #13035601
With higher MP count, getting motion-induced blur is very likely. Canon recommends doubling your shutter-speed than what you normally shoot with. Also, it is not recommended to pixel-peep at 100% crop to gauge pixel sharpness since the higher MP count will reveal that motion-induced blurriness.

Could you post a link to the source of this info? I'm having a hard time getting a grasp on why MP count could be related to motion blur.

Hi,

You have given me a lot to read. I will digest this and post pics as requested.

Thank you for all the replies (including the essay by amfoto 1 )


Tony

General_T wrote in post #13036647
Hi,

You have given me a lot to read. I will digest this and post pics as requested.

Thank you for all the replies (including the essay by amfoto 1 )


Tony

Shooting the same subject in JPEG then in RAW might give you some insight into whether it's a focus issue of some kind, user-induced or otherwise, or whether it's a post-processing issue.

amfoto1 wrote in post #13036289
I have to agree with this... Your lens most likely isn't the problem, unless there's something fundamentally wrong with it. In terms of image quality, the 17-55 is one of the most "L-like" EF-S lenses available.

Yes, I'd suggest using some MFA on the lens. This is easier to do with a prime than a zoom... but you likely can fine tune it quite a bit. You should test it at two or three focal length settings and arrive at how much MFA you need to dial in for each. Then you'll probably have to decide whether to average those for a single setting to use with the lens, or might bias it a bit toward whatever focal length you use the most with the zoom.

Canon recommends a different method of doing MFA, that doesn't involve actually taking any photos. They suggest using the more accurate but much slower Contrast Detect focus in Live Mode to calibrate the usual Phase Detection mode. The only caveat, it can only be used with a lens that has a visible focus distance scale.

Start by setting up a flat target with lots of detail, perfectly parallel to the sensor ("film") plane of the camera. A newspaper taped to the wall works pretty well. I've used a wooden fence with a lot of detail. It should be 50X the focal lenth of the lens from the camera to the target (so about 8 feet for a 50mm lens: 50 x 50 = 2500. 2500/25.4mm per inch = 98.425. 98.425/12 inches per foot = 8.2 feet).

Put the camera on a tripod, at the right distance for the focal length being tested and with the sensor plane kept parallel to the target. And, if possible, use a remote release to activate focus (half press of the shutter release... if using Back Button Focus normally, you might want to switch back temporarily to the standard method of focus activation). If don't have a remote release, be careful and gentle to not to bump the camera while pressing the button (of your choice) to activate AF.

Select the center AF point only, in One Shot mode, and use that to focus on the target. Then, while being careful not to bump the camera or change focus on the lens, switch to Live View and activate focus again. Keep an eye on the lens' distance scale. If it moves at all, you need to dial in some MFA to adjust it. Retest after doing that. Repeat as necesary, changing the amount of MFA a little at a time until there is no movement of the distance scale at all.

Again, with a zoom you will want to repeat this process at several different focal lengths (might want to temporarily tape the zoom ring of the lens, so it stays at that focal length during calibration). When the focus distance scale no longer moves at all (or as little as possible if you have to average some settings with a zoom), you will have set the lens as accurately as possible.

It might then be a good idea to take some test shots of a target like the batteries shown above or one of those angled calibration scales, examining the images on your computer monitor, just to confirm the setting. Use the lens at it's max aperture to get as shallow depth of field as possible. With some lenses, the max aperture isn't the lens' sharpest, so take that into consideration when viewing the images. Here we are simply using MFA to fine tune of focus accuracy. Later, taking images with the lens you may want to use a more optimum aperture. Here you are just using the largest aperture to get minimum DOF, to evaluate focus accuracy.

If you cannot adjust this pretty well using the range available within the MFA feature, the camera and/or lens might need to be sent to Canon Service for greater calibrations.

One last thing regarding MFA... it's camera body specific, but only lens model specific. So, for example, if you were using two or three different 17-55mm, any adjustment you dial into the camera with MFA will have the same amount of calibration applied on any copy of that lens that's attached to it. On the other hand, two different cameras might end up with quite different amounts of calibration with any particular lens used on both of them.

Beyond calibrating your focus with MFA, there are several things... But first understand that the 7D is designed with fairly experienced users in mind, people who normally would want to take a lot of control over their images.

Yes, it uses a strong Anti Alias filter and requires more sharpening than earlier and other models. This is not a "mistake" of Canon's, putting too strong a filter on the camera. It's deliberate, to reduce chance of moire occuring when shooting certain subjects with strong patterns with such a high pixel density sensor. Pretty much all DSLRs use an AA filter, but it varies how strong they are, and how effective. For example, 5D series cameras have considerably less densely crowded sensors, even the current Mark II model that captures more megapixels than the 7D. Cameras with weaker AA just need less sharpening of their images, straight from the camera.

One option, you might want to shoot JPEGs for a while. If you do, the initial sharpening will be done in-camera. Choose a Picture Style with fairly strong sharpening. You can go into any of the Picture Styles and set sharpening higher, too.

If you want to stick with RAWs instead, that's cool. You can use Canon Digital Photo Pro (DPP) and it will use whatever sharpening parameter you've set in the camera during RAW conversion, or you can change it at that time if you wish. Or, using a thrid party software such as Photoshop (etc.), just set the default sharpening higher in your RAW converter. That's possible with most RAW converters. Going from 50D to 7D crop sensor cameras two years ago, I also found the images a bit soft. I now tend to use 75 or 85% more sharpening now, on average, with 7D. The detail is there, you just have to do a bit more to find it in your 7D images.

Also watch your apertures. Any lens softness wide open will be more apparent. At the other end of the aperture range, you can see more diffraction effects at the smaller apertures. All this varies from lens to lens, of course, but in general I try to stay in the f2.8 to f11 range, when I'm looking for top sharpness. Some f2.8 zooms I stop down to f3.5 or f4, and if I'm looking for the absolute minimum diffraction I might use no more than f8.

I also agree, try to use somewhat higher shutter speeds whenever possible. Don't be afraid to bump up ISO. Depending upon how the image will be used, I will go to 3200 with my 7Ds at times. Even higher on rare occasions. The optimum shutter speeds on the camera are a bit higher... It's not very forgiving of even a little camera shake. For typical daylight shooting I use 400 and 800 a lot of the time. Better to use a "too high" ISO with 7D, than too low! My "normal" ISO is probably 400 with these cameras, where I was regularly using 100 and 200 with earlier models. If anything, 7D has slightly more noise at lower ISOs, compared to earlier, lower resolution models. There is some noise at higher ISO, but somehow it's not as problematic... It might be more random or something.

Just watch out for accidental underexposure. If you need to add any exposure to your images during post processing, it will amplify noise with 7D, as much as and perhaps more than with other models.

Also, don't just rely on what you see on your computer monitor. Besides "pixel peeping" at silly magnifications (which you say you aren't doing), I think these images are stretching the limits and capabilities of the typical LCD monitor. I was using an "HD" consumer grade monitor and recently switched to a more graphics oriented IPS screen. That helped me a lot.

But also, make some prints. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at the actual output. Prints are best evaluated on good, smooth, matte paper with a pretty good photo quality printer. When you resize and do final sharpening of the images for print, I think you will see a really good result. The same is true when images are sized down and final sharpening is applied for digital image pisplayed on the Internet, too.

Focus is more critical with such a high resolution camera, too. I've experimented with all the AF modes on 7D, and find some uses for all of them at different times. But I mostly use a simple Single Point, manually selected, usually shooting in AI Servo and using Back Button Focusing. Zone Focus, Expansion Points, and certainly All Points will leave it up to the camera to decide where to focus. That might not be where I want it to focus. I tend to use Single Point/Manually Selected most of the time for that reason. Spot Focus is even higher precision, quite useful at times, but slower focusing so not usable all the time. In modes other than Spot Focus, the actual AF sensor is somewhat larger than the box illustration in the viewfinder, and seems to be mostly biased slightly above the box.

Stick with it... There's a fairly steep learning curve to getting the best out of 7D... But it can be a great camera in the end.

best advice I've ever seen anyone give on the forums.

I second the highlighted part. I am especially careful with apertures. I found the 7D to be pretty sensitive to that. i also use the center focus point almost exclusively. used well, it is very very accurate.

I've attached a shot I took with one at 100% on the headlight area. Im very satisfied with the focus accuracy and sharpness by my 7D. The lens used is the 15-85mm IS USM

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Another thing to help with focus is when using a tripod, turn off the lens stabilizer. It in itself causes some minor vibration and it is not needed since the camera is securely held.

Hello, Tony, I also am Tony! You can tell the difference between us: you are a "General" whereas if you look at my title you will note that I am "Long...winded"!

So, threads like this talking about "soft" bring up an important question:

What do you mean by "soft"?

To explain, there are two general meanings for sharpness/softness that we see come up in photography.

"Technical" sharpness is the ability of your body and lens to focus on detail in a scene and return that detail well-rendered. This assumes that your technique "optimizes" good focus/sharpness. As we've seen, an image viewed at a close zoom can and should have good apparent sharpness. I don't own a 7D, but I've seen plenty of shots that, viewed at 100%, do show fine detail with a perfectly acceptable degree of sharpness.

The other "meaning" of sharpness/softness is not technical but more about the "look" of an image at any level of zoom. The "sharpness"/"softness" is apparent. Rather than technical sharpness, this "look" is typically a result of things like Contrast and some high level of sharening applied either by the camera when creating a jpeg or by post-processing, typically in your Raw processing software.

One way of "seeing" this is to set your camera to shooting Raw+jpeg, and choose a Picture Style that is designed to give your image some "pop". Standard is generally fine, although Landscape gives some more "punch". These Picture Styles render levels of Contrast, Saturation and Sharpening that, if you compare the jpegs with your Raw files in Camera Raw, will have a distinctively different "snappier" look.

So, back to the question, what do you mean by "soft"? If you do the above, Raw +jpeg (use Landscape for you Picture Style) is the jpeg "sharp" but only the Raw "soft"? If so, then you will know that your answer will be in your Raw processing.

So you know, the Adobe Camera Raw app, along with Lightroom and many other Raw processors tend to produce a "flat" initial preview of a Raw shot, and so people get taken aback until they get some experience in processing them.

But I steer people toward the Canon Raw processor Digital Photo Professional (DPP) who are starting out with the Raw format for a meaningful reason: DPP takes the in-camera settings and uses them to render the preview as a "starting point" that is nice and "jpeg-like" that you can then further process or just use those settings for a quick conversion.

In fact, you can do a different "demo" from the Raw+jpeg by just shooting Raw in whatever Picture Style you like. Open the Raw file in DPP and then in the Edit window.

First, note that the preview will reflect your jpeg settings (Picture Style, etc). Then, in the tools panel, you will note three "tabs". One of those tabs, the Raw tab, is dedicated to Raw processing only (no jpegs allowed). In that Raw tab/panel, note that there are settings that have the same names and functions that your camera settings have: White Balance, Picture Style, Contrast, Sharpening all emulate the in-camera settings and Brightness of course emulates Expoosure Compensation/adjustmen​ts. The thing to understand is that all these functions (except your in-camera exposure and focus) are pure processing of the Raw data and with a Raw file can be changed on-the-fly in DPP.

So, back to the question: by "soft", is it possible that you are referring to the Raw preview in Camera Raw, that it's "flat", it lacks "pop"?

As far as technical sharpness/softness, well, that can be more difficult for us to analyze because of the variety of things that can affect your focus and the resulting image.

Do the batteries test posted above -- it's quick and simple.

In addition, I want to point you to a "sticky" thread. the first post is an overall discussion about "focus problems" and how in general to approach handling and discussing them.

The second post is what I want to draw your attention to, not because I wrote it, but because it lays out a fairly comprehensive approach to testing and evaluate your camera/lens combination when it comes to the Auto Focus capabilities. Here's the thread:

https://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthre​ad.php?t=857871

I'd recommend you reading the thread and running through at least some of the tests as well as the batteries test. The, post back here with "meaningful" results. By meaningful results I mean close crops that can show technical sharpness/softness. When it comes to "pixel peeping" well just realize that you can't fully judge technical sharpness unless you are viewing at a low level/high zoom, so in my experience viewing at 100% is actually the best way of checking for this. So, post close crops that show all the fine detail and then we can help you to analyze the technical performance of your gear.

Or, if the "softness" turns out to be a problem with viewing your Raw shot in Camera Raw compared to a jpeg or the DPP "version", let us know!

I hope this helps a bit!

General_T wrote in post #13035348
Hi,

I have only had the camera for about a week, but am troubled by the "soft" look of the pictures straight out of the camera. I am shooting all RAW pics and have tried all the different combos from full Auto to full Manual. Don't get me wrong - I am no professional but from what I have read and seen for myself there is a real issue here. And this is not from pixel peeping either.

I have read a lot of reveiews and peoples opinions about this issue. I have tried to convince myself that I would be happy with the results after PP - but somehow this seemed odd to have to rely on PP for a decent picture with this level of Camera?

My big hangup with this is that I have spent $3000 for a camera and lens and I can't get a sharp picture straight out of the camera? I have to do PP to improve the image. I am quite disappointed as I do truly love the features of this camera and wish I was over the moon with it. It sucks though when your wife is looking over your shoulder and commenting that they dont seem to be very sharp even relative to a P&S.

You can not shoot raw and not Post Process. Read a book!

Hi Neil_R,

I believe you can...except you have a CR2 file, instead of a Jpeg / Tiff / etc. What I meant was the pic straight out of the camera as a RAW file.

Hi TeamSpeed,

I followed your settings for the "Battery Test". Although I am not sure how to post pics on this forum in the way you may want me too.

I reduced the size down to the max allowed 1024 and saved as a JPeg. Not sure how to add the exif ifo though.

Is this of any use?


All of the other pics are shot with the same "battery test" settings

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JPEG output will post process in the camera, it will sharpen and adjust saturation and several other things, RAW will not you have to do it yourself.