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Thread started 07 Sep 2011 (Wednesday) 05:01
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What's wrong with the Rebels - seriously!

 
drmaxx
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Sep 07, 2011 05:01 |  #1

This is a serious question - I am thinking about 'upgrading' to a 'better' body but have a hard time to see the benefit in terms of picture quality.

Reading POTN now for quite a while there are all this quotes about the Rebels: "better point & shoot", "beginner camera", "entry level", "base to move up", ....

I shoot with a Rebel 450D for a few years now. I am comfortable with producing decent pictures even under more difficult conditions. I use most of the buttons on my camera frequently and shoot raw.

Now, I am looking at the other Canon bodies and have difficulties to be able to identify a good reason to switch. And yes, I am aware of the specs (higher ISO, faster shutter speeds, ..). But it seems to me that most of the 'upgrade' are bells and whistles and not much an improvement in picture quality (e.g. like going from a compact to a SLR).

So, here's my question:
Did anybody switched from a Rebel to an xxD or xD and his pictures improved? Why? Or: Did you switched and you improved as a photographer because of the new camera (UI, ...)?


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Headshotzx
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Sep 07, 2011 05:14 |  #2

Latter reason first - 400D (xti) -> 1D Mark II N and my, the autofocus and 8.5fps allowed me to make pictures that others couldn't, and yes I took it under the rain and nothing, absolutely nothing, had issues.

Then I bought a 5D Mark I, and my image quality improved. I started shooting at iso3200 no prob, whereas my 1DMarkIIn or 400D would've just crashed and burned (with the 400D, you'd have to underexpose and bring up in post). The FF aspect, as well as the high sensor pixel density was great.

Then I went a bit into video, and bought the 5D Mark II, which is now the only camera I use. Slow as it may be, the 21mp RAW files are exactly what I wanted for printing relatively large, especially for stuff like exhibitions. ISO6400 is used frequently too, at f/1.4 and 1/30 with center point in a dark environment and the AF locks on slowly but surely with my 35L.

Have my pictures improved? Maybe, maybe not. Have I gotten images that the 400D would've done so as well? Definitely. Have I grown with the new cameras with new features that made me a better photographer as a whole? You bet.

If you really need to convince yourself to upgrade your body, then perhaps it's not the time yet. For me, the decision came naturally as I wanted to progress further and not be limited by my 400D as I was already borrowing 40Ds and 50Ds from friends for an entire year for events, thus the straight jump to a professional body. After I stopped shooting sports and action, I did the change to FF and started shooting more portraits, street and other stuff that didn't require 1 series AF and all that. Although my joystick button did die for a day when I brought the 5D2 under the rain.


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Stump
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Sep 07, 2011 05:50 |  #3

I think if you went to a 5D you'd see an improvement in picture quality. Other than that, I don't think you're going to see any difference in the xxd body's.


6D - 50 1.8 - 50 1.4 - 70-200F4L

  
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1Tanker
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Sep 07, 2011 05:58 as a reply to  @ Headshotzx's post |  #4

Yes, actually..i upgraded from a T2i to a 60D. That's a very minor upgrade; i'm not sure if i've improved from the 60D...i have improved though, but it's only been 2 months. I can take "tougher" shots that wouldn't have turned out with the T2i. The faster, more accurate AF along with a much faster burst, make sports and wildlife shooting easier, and just plain better. While i haven't had the chance to try it, the built in flash-transmitter opens up lots of lighting possibilities, while saving you the purchase of a dedicated transmitter.

A few nice c-Fn's can be of use, and for me.. the built in level is great, for when shooting on a tripod.

So, once again...yes, all these little "gimmicks" can add up to a slightly better picture(sometimes a big difference), and many times.. a picture that wouldn't have been a keeper with my T2i.

In the end, a lot will hinge on what kind of pictures you like to take. For portraiture.. not so much, for action..yes.


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boerewors
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Sep 07, 2011 06:01 |  #5

The current lineup of 550D, 600D, 60D and 7D all use the same sensor and can all make the same results if used in the right hands. I chose the 60D because of the top LCD screen which helps me alot when i need to change a setting fast but i later realised that i can see those settings even faster directly in the viewfinder and on the screen with the press of a single button which the lower end 550D can do as well. If i knew that when i was starting i would have just got the 550D and used the saved cash towards a better lens.
Only the 7D has a bit of an edge with its large viewfinder and a better autofocus system but its not enough of a difference to stop a pro photographer from getting the same result on a 550D. It all boils down to how much more you are willing to spend for camera 'jewelry'. If its older cameras compared to newer ones, i can only notice a bit of improvement in megapixels which helps when printing large and noise levels are better at higher iso. So unless you regularly print large prints, just hang onto your old faithfull cameras untill they die completely
I cant compare the above mentioned cameras to the 5Dmkii though because full frame is on another level alltogether. If i could ever afford the jump to full frame i would jump very fast. Even a second hand 5D classic goes for more than a new 60D. Comparing a 5D to a 5D mkii i will take any one of them over any crop camera. I like them over crops because of the depth they can create in portraits and the low noise levels over crops.
I think canon should rather look into 16bit raw files with higher dynamic range and sensors capable of resolving more detail and less noise at the pixel level... Rather than racing for megapixels and the fastest processor that can push ultra HD video at a thousand frames a second. Photographers are looking for cameras and not bling bling. if canon continue the way they are, the next generation of cameras will come with built in games to play on a touch screen and an internet browser instead of the things that are really needed.


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Sep 07, 2011 06:09 as a reply to  @ boerewors's post |  #6

NOTHING wrong with the Rebels - seriously!!!

Ok, I have 400D / XTi, 5D2 & 550D / T2i, and I'm using all of them.

Under good lighting condition, my 400D & 550 are almost as good as my 5D2;
But in low lighting condition, 5D2 is LOTS better.


Canon 5D3 + Zoom (EF 17-40L, 24-105L & 28-300L, 100-400L II) & Prime (24L II, 85L II, 100L, 135L & 200 f/2.8L II; Zeiss 1,4/35)
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LudwigVB
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Sep 07, 2011 06:22 |  #7

I haven't upgraded from a Rebel but I have upgraded from 10D to 20D to 30D to 40D.
What I think I noticed more than anything was an improvement in reliabily/predictabili​ty/number of keepers with each upgrade. I also found that ease of use/ergonomics improved.

IImproved IQ was not really a big factor, but that may be because I don't make huge enlargements so I don't really see much benefit from improved resolution.




  
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talbot_sunbeam
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Sep 07, 2011 06:27 |  #8

It's not about picture quality until you jump to FF - it's about improved responsiveness, ergonomics, and more powerful features that will let you get the shot in more challenging conditions.

If you stand there are take a landscape shot on a tripod with a 450D, and take the same shot on the 7D (same glass) you are not going to see any difference...



7D, 450D | 17-55, 10-22, 55-250, 50 1.8, 580EXII | YN568II | YN622 x3 | Magic Lantern | (Still) Jonesing for a 70-200 2.8...
Turns out a gripped 7D + 622 + 580exII + 70-200 2.8 IS MK2 is BLOODY HEAVY! Who knew?!!

  
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x_tan
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Sep 07, 2011 06:35 as a reply to  @ talbot_sunbeam's post |  #9

NOTHING wrong with the Rebels - seriously!!!

Ok, some photos example:

Low lighting:

5D2 + 85L @ f/4, ISO 3200, 1/60s:

IMAGE: http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6018/6013851098_4316c4d08c_b.jpg
IMAGE LINK: http://www.flickr.com/​photos/x_tan/601385109​8/  (external link)
Making Syphon, St. Ali, South Melbourne (external link) by X_Tan (external link), on Flickr

550D / T2i + 24L @ f/4, ISO 1600, 1/20s:
IMAGE: http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6003/6013898074_52d3608661_b.jpg
IMAGE LINK: http://www.flickr.com/​photos/x_tan/601389807​4/  (external link)
Making Syphon, St. Ali, South Melbourne (external link) by X_Tan (external link), on Flickr

Canon 5D3 + Zoom (EF 17-40L, 24-105L & 28-300L, 100-400L II) & Prime (24L II, 85L II, 100L, 135L & 200 f/2.8L II; Zeiss 1,4/35)
Sony α7r + Zeiss 1,8/55 FE
Nikon Coolpix A; Nikon F3 & F100 + Zeiss 1,4/50
Retiring  (external link)

  
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muusers
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Sep 07, 2011 06:42 |  #10

drmaxx wrote in post #13063122 (external link)
Did anybody switched from a Rebel to an xxD or xD and his pictures improved?

I switched from a 1000D to a 50D. No my pictures didnt improve significant.

Did you switched and you improved as a photographer because of the new camera (UI, ...)?

Well, not inmediatly. I switched because the 50D felt better in my hands, offered higher ISO's, a scrollwheel at the back and a LCD on the top.


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Sep 07, 2011 06:47 |  #11

talbot_sunbeam wrote in post #13063327 (external link)
It's not about picture quality until you jump to FF - it's about improved responsiveness, ergonomics, and more powerful features that will let you get the shot in more challenging conditions.

If you stand there are take a landscape shot on a tripod with a 450D, and take the same shot on the 7D (same glass) you are not going to see any difference...

Yes you will, from more detail if you resize the 7D down, as well as better color management/metering. The amount of difference would be up for debate, but whether they were identical, I know there are differences.


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The ­ Ran
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Sep 07, 2011 06:49 |  #12

To be fair it looks like that 550D shot has been under exposed a little and then brought up. Also, although DXOMark says otherwise, I would swear my NEX-3 performs closer to the 5DII than the 550D, the performance is truly amazing compared to my old 20D (perhaps that is biasing my view of it).


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kcbrown
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Sep 07, 2011 06:50 |  #13

drmaxx wrote in post #13063122 (external link)
This is a serious question - I am thinking about 'upgrading' to a 'better' body but have a hard time to see the benefit in terms of picture quality.

Reading POTN now for quite a while there are all this quotes about the Rebels: "better point & shoot", "beginner camera", "entry level", "base to move up", ....

I shoot with a Rebel 450D for a few years now. I am comfortable with producing decent pictures even under more difficult conditions. I use most of the buttons on my camera frequently and shoot raw.

Now, I am looking at the other Canon bodies and have difficulties to be able to identify a good reason to switch. And yes, I am aware of the specs (higher ISO, faster shutter speeds, ..). But it seems to me that most of the 'upgrade' are bells and whistles and not much an improvement in picture quality (e.g. like going from a compact to a SLR).

So, here's my question:
Did anybody switched from a Rebel to an xxD or xD and his pictures improved? Why? Or: Did you switched and you improved as a photographer because of the new camera (UI, ...)?

OK, here's the deal with upgrading your body...

First, image quality isn't really that much different between the DSLRs. Newer DSLRs have greater resolution, as do full frame DSLRs (usually), but that will be useful to you only if you need to crop heavily or if you need to print very large. Otherwise, the image quality will be very similar at lower ISOs.

At higher ISOs, things start to look a little different, but images from bodies as old as the 20D can be made to look remarkably good with modern postprocessing software. The biggest factor by far in determining the image quality is going to be your exposure, which determines how much of the camera's dynamic range you're using to record the image you want. Dynamic range has improved somewhat over time, but not dramatically. Even the 10D is capable of recording nearly 11 Ev of dynamic range. Full frame gets you only about a stop better than that.

The biggest jump in image quality will be had by going with a full frame camera, but as I've said elsewhere, even that will yield a relatively small improvement. The out-of-the-camera sharpness will be a little better, and the resolution will be higher, but that won't matter unless you're printing large. The tones will be a little creamier at lower ISOs, by about a stop, but I suspect that even that is something that will take a trained eye to really notice. The noise will similarly be more controlled on full frame, by about a stop, at higher ISOs in comparison with crop cameras of the same generation. If you stick with crop cameras, the only image quality improvements you'll see by going with a newer camera will be higher resolution, and noise at higher ISOs.


No, image quality isn't a good reason to upgrade unless you find that you need the best possible image quality you can lay your hands on. If you're in a position where image quality is that important, you'll want full frame and you'll already be unsatisfied with the image quality you're getting. But for your specific case, where you're apparently not going to be happy with anything but a major improvement image quality, there's no reason to upgrade to get it, because the improvement will be nothing like the improvement you get by going from a point'n'shoot to a DSLR.


And that leads to the real reason to upgrade your body: the ability to capture the image more reliably. More capable bodies are faster, more responsive, and tend to have better autofocus systems (even the full frame cameras have improved center autofocus points). The extra speed means the camera will obey your command when you command it, without delay. The better autofocus systems will increase the reliability with which you'll get in-focus shots, which will in turn increase your keeper rate.

However, much depends on how you use the camera and, as importantly, how you want to use it. If you shoot a lot of high-speed action, then fast, precise, and flexible autofocus will be much more important than if you're shooting still subjects. If you have a lot of lenses and are having trouble with some of them in terms of getting precisely focused shots, it's possible that the microadjustment feature on some of the newer bodies will prove useful. But if your demands on the autofocus system are relatively straightforward and unsophisticated, then the autofocus system in your Rebel may be entirely sufficient.


The bottom line is that you shouldn't bother upgrading your body unless you have a specific reason for it and know what that reason is and how best to satisfy it. That reason, whatever it may be, will determine what body to upgrade to. If you don't have any good, solid, specific reason to upgrade, however, then you shouldn't, because it means your camera is giving you everything you need and want.


Older camera bodies are just as capable of capturing stunning images as they always have been. The 10D thread that's still active is an excellent example of that, and is but one such sample thread. There are several others.


And yes, the above probably goes against quite a lot of the "conventional wisdom" you see being bandied about here. This is a gear forum, after all. But money is hard to come by, and there is little reason to spend it unless you have some specific need that can be fulfilled by doing so.


"There are some things that money can't buy, but they aren't Ls and aren't worth having" -- Shooter-boy
Canon: 2 x 7D, Sigma 17-50 f/2.8 OS, 55-250 IS, Sigma 8-16, 24-105L, Sigma 50/1.4, other assorted primes, and a 430EX.
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Tony_Stark
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Sep 07, 2011 06:51 |  #14

I recently upgraded from a 50D to a 5D Mark II and have noticed a remarkabld difference in mage quality. I dont think I have many shots so far taken below ISO 800. The resulting images at ISO 1600/3200 are so damn clean. On my 50D I would notice bad noise at ISO 800.

With that being said this is how I see things:

Rebel -> XXD body = more ergonomic change (easier to change features as there are more didcated buttons and very little difference in IQ because most Rebels and XXD bodies share the same sensors.


Nikon D810 | 24-70/2.8G | 58/1.4G
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Sep 07, 2011 06:56 |  #15

x_tan wrote in post #13063349 (external link)
Ok, some photos example:

What do you do to process both of those? That is really a very poor T2i sample, in my opinion. Even with the different exposure, with the bump going to the T2i, it looks poor.

This is even lower light than your 5D2 image (1 stop lower) at ISO 6400, f2.8, 1/160th.

IMAGE: http://teamspeed.smugmug.com/Church-and-Family/Church-Events/CRCC-Nails-of-Hope-2010/IMG1591/832504724_ByXJV-XL.jpg

Even lower yet, by another 2/3 stop.

IMAGE: http://teamspeed.smugmug.com/Church-and-Family/Church-Events/CRCC-Nails-of-Hope-2010/IMG1590/832504717_4XXJq-XL.jpg

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"Man only has 5 senses, and sometimes not even that, so if they define the world, the universe, the dimensions of existence, and spirituality with just these limited senses, their view of what-is and what-can-be is very myopic indeed and they are doomed, now and forever."

  
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What's wrong with the Rebels - seriously!
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