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FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos The Business of Photography 
Thread started 28 Sep 2011 (Wednesday) 17:32
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Just to drive home the point about the cheapening of our industry....

 
zerovision
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Sep 29, 2011 13:26 |  #31

Hogloff wrote in post #13182729 (external link)
Zerovision, been hurt in the corporate world by these mean execs making billions have you.

Not directly, but I have seen others in the business world and even in local schools (employees) get shafted out of funds they worked for because that department was given a budget and the ones in charge elected to keep that money personally instead of using it to better the company.

They are good at hiding their true colors, but they look good, by staying within the budget and in return get more funds each year. If someone up top came the to DoM and said "these pix suck and we have high profile customers complaining about them" then things would change, but these guys get chewed out if the bottom line is less than the year before so they eliminate that by getting low quality service and keeping the bottom line stable.

Its just the corporate way just like photographers don't go all out every time high end expensive equipment comes out. We look at a lens in our price range take pictures and say they are just as good as the $2000 lenses that other photographers buy to justify the purchase.

I consider myself at the lower part of the totum pole when it comes to my skills as a photographer. Most may feel I don't deserve the equipment that I have, but I've tried to buy the best to someday provide the very best I can offer.

My complaint is that I can't even offer my services for free to photographers shooting a wedding that need a second shooter or are shooting their first wedding. I'm just trying to help a fellow photographer and I get nothing, not even a no thank you.

I offered my services, on this forum, as a second shooter in the DFW area and my first two replys were along the lines of someone saying that it made them think of the Kennedy Assassination. How would you like that for your first response?


  
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airfrogusmc
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Sep 29, 2011 13:50 |  #32

Hogloff wrote in post #13182729 (external link)
Zerovision, been hurt in the corporate world by these mean execs making billions have you.

Sadly we've all been hurt by them. The financial and housing problems have destroyed the economy that led to the largest financial melt down since the great depression so yeah they have hurt each and every one of us.




  
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S.Horton
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Sep 29, 2011 13:53 |  #33

Curtis N wrote in post #13181194 (external link)
Bull.

We've all heard plenty of stories about incompetent doctors, incompetent plumbers, and all manner of occupations filled with people who have completed some government-approved training and testing program.

You think the government can determine who is qualified to be a photographer? The evidence is against you.

Nope, I think you guys and gals might have better lives if licensing were are requirement to engage in a contract for money.

I'm just sayin', 'professions' which involve far less risk to the public require it. Why? Money. Control.

So, what should a photographer know before being cut loose?
1. Safety and procedure for venue-specific personal risk management
2. Posing / action capture / framing (composition more broadly)
3. Lighting
4. Post-processing
5. Copyright law
6. Contract law as it applies to the craft
7. Basic tax law
8. Venue-specific fee structures
9. G&N / Family / Event-specific rules, do's and don'ts
10. Industry pricing
11. Explosive hazmat / disposal (batteries)
12......... bet you could name many more.

The manufacturers would not stand for it, and they have all the money. So, just an idea.


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Hogloff
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Sep 29, 2011 13:56 |  #34
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airfrogusmc wrote in post #13183003 (external link)
Sadly we've all been hurt by them. The financial and housing problems have destroyed the economy that led to the largest financial melt down since the great depression so yeah they have hurt each and every one of us.

Yes, we can blame the "big guys" for the housing problem but I bet we all loved it when we were approved those unbelievable mortgages. Easy to blame everyone else around you, but I think we all contributed a little bit to this mess. Everyone's eyes bug out when cheap money is handed to them.




  
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airfrogusmc
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Sep 29, 2011 15:03 |  #35

Hogloff wrote in post #13183041 (external link)
Yes, we can blame the "big guys" for the housing problem but I bet we all loved it when we were approved those unbelievable mortgages. Easy to blame everyone else around you, but I think we all contributed a little bit to this mess. Everyone's eyes bug out when cheap money is handed to them.

It wasn't me and you bundling and selling our mortgages on the open market like so many other commodities and don't even get me going on the derivatives problem. Remember bucket shops in the 1890s and being able to barrow 90% to invest in the market in the late 1920s? So yeah it is kinda their fault.




  
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low-1
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Sep 29, 2011 15:16 |  #36

airfrogusmc wrote in post #13183317 (external link)
It wasn't me and you bundling and selling our mortgages on the open market like so many other commodities and don't even get me going on the derivatives problem. Remember bucket shops in the 1890s and being able to barrow 90% to invest in the market in the late 1920s? So yeah it is kinda their fault.

Kinda their fault, yes. Entirely their fault? I doubt anyone was "forced" to go out and buy a $750K house while making $30K a year. I know common sense died a while ago, but it could have been useful when everyone and their dog were buying McMansions and re-mortgaging the house to buy brand new trucks, boats, quads, etc.




  
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GadgetRick
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Sep 29, 2011 15:19 |  #37

S.Horton wrote in post #13183021 (external link)
Nope, I think you guys and gals might have better lives if licensing were are requirement to engage in a contract for money.

I'm just sayin', 'professions' which involve far less risk to the public require it. Why? Money. Control.

So, what should a photographer know before being cut loose?
1. Safety and procedure for venue-specific personal risk management
2. Posing / action capture / framing (composition more broadly)
3. Lighting
4. Post-processing
5. Copyright law
6. Contract law as it applies to the craft
7. Basic tax law
8. Venue-specific fee structures
9. G&N / Family / Event-specific rules, do's and don'ts
10. Industry pricing
11. Explosive hazmat / disposal (batteries)
12......... bet you could name many more.

The manufacturers would not stand for it, and they have all the money. So, just an idea.

This is my problem with licensing...RARELY does it actually accomplish what the intended goal is--to put competent people in these positions. They turn more into a money grab for the agencies handling the licensing and the places doing the teaching/testing.

Licensing would accomplish NOTHING in the world of photography. As I said, I just went through the whole licensing CF in the mortgage business. It would be no different in photography.




  
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GadgetRick
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Sep 29, 2011 15:24 as a reply to  @ low-1's post |  #38

To get a little back on topic (and not to whine)....

I train jiu jitsu at a school here in town. I pay a monthly fee to train there. The school just moved into a new location. The owner even mentioned (on the FB fanpage) he needs to get photos of the new school. Of course I mentioned I know a good photographer. He replies, "Come on over a and start shooting!" Obviously, he's not looking to spend money.

Now, I'll approach him and see about doing a shoot (and getting paid) but I know there will be push back. Of course, remember, I'm paying a monthly fee for his services but he wants my services for free.

So my complaints aren't so much that people give away photography for free--that will always happen. I'm more annoyed at people who expect it for free. Some of them may expect it because so many people do give it away for free, however, I don't think that's the real issue. I think people just don't usually see the value in a professional photographer. They never budget for one in these situations because we're the last thing on their minds. Why is it? Honestly, I don't really know.

I'm actually looking to get more into business photography (like what this guy needs). Take a look at most websites for local businesses and you can see they need better photographs. Just have to find the best way to show them the value of what we do.




  
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airfrogusmc
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Sep 29, 2011 15:44 |  #39

low-1 wrote in post #13183370 (external link)
Kinda their fault, yes. Entirely their fault? I doubt anyone was "forced" to go out and buy a $750K house while making $30K a year. I know common sense died a while ago, but it could have been useful when everyone and their dog were buying McMansions and re-mortgaging the house to buy brand new trucks, boats, quads, etc.

Who was responsible for letting them have the loan? The institution, right? I remember buying my first house in 1988. It was a real ordeal and I if I hadn't gone VA I would have had to have 20% down. And why would the institution initiating the loan not care? Because they were bundling and selling the mortgages. How can it be anybodies fault but the ones lending the money. All the lender had to do was say NO. But everyone was making a fortune until the house of cards came tumbling down but it wasn't a problem as long as the money was being made no matter how risky and how many said it was nothing but a house of cards.




  
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low-1
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Sep 29, 2011 15:51 |  #40

airfrogusmc wrote in post #13183471 (external link)
Who was responsible for letting them have the loan? The institution, right? I remember buying my first house in 1988. It was a real ordeal and I if I hadn't gone VA I would have had to have 20% down. And why would the institution initiating the loan not care? Because they were bundling and selling the mortgages. How can it be anybodies fault but the ones lending the money. All the lender had to do was say NO. But everyone was making a fortune until the house of cards came tumbling down but it wasn't a problem as long as the money was being made no matter how risky and how many said it was nothing but a house of cards.

Hey, I'm definitely not saying that they are not to blame here, because they definitely are, but if I told you that I would give you half a mil, and you just had to pay me back a couple hundred a month, you wouldn't be a little suspicious?

The average person should have a little responsibility in knowing whether or not they could afford their lifestyle, regardless of if the banks are willing to approve the loan, don't you think?




  
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603media
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Sep 29, 2011 15:53 |  #41

GadgetRick wrote in post #13183414 (external link)
To get a little back on topic (and not to whine)....

So my complaints aren't so much that people give away photography for free--that will always happen. I'm more annoyed at people who expect it for free.

Bingo! That, ultimately, was my original point.

On the other hand, we were recently paid $3,000 for a 90-minute photo shoot with a doctor who was top-ranked in his specialty. The magazine paying for the shoot was a very specialized publication that catered specifically to a single disease (Crohn's Syndrome) and they really only wanted one usable photo from the shoot. So some folks do still see the value in photography.


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airfrogusmc
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Sep 29, 2011 16:03 |  #42

low-1 wrote in post #13183512 (external link)
Hey, I'm definitely not saying that they are not to blame here, because they definitely are, but if I told you that I would give you half a mil, and you just had to pay me back a couple hundred a month, you wouldn't be a little suspicious?

The average person should have a little responsibility in knowing whether or not they could afford their lifestyle, regardless of if the banks are willing to approve the loan, don't you think?

Well, I wouldn't do it and didn't but the people that let the loan go through are ultimately responsible. All the had to do was say NO but there was to much money being made.




  
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603media
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Sep 29, 2011 16:24 |  #43

Guys, can you please take the politics and wall street stuff to another thread? It's hard to read the relevant posts with all your back-and-forth off-topic stuff. :)


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Sep 29, 2011 16:50 |  #44

low-1 wrote in post #13183512 (external link)
Hey, I'm definitely not saying that they are not to blame here, because they definitely are, but if I told you that I would give you half a mil, and you just had to pay me back a couple hundred a month, you wouldn't be a little suspicious?

The average person should have a little responsibility in knowing whether or not they could afford their lifestyle, regardless of if the banks are willing to approve the loan, don't you think?

"The average person" isn't the one who had the legal and moral responsibility to make a good loan. "The average person" doesn't know the business. If the loan officer says, "You can afford this," the average person is going to think it must be true...because the "average person" will presume the loan officer wouldn't loan him money knowing he couldn't repay it.

If the loan officer doesn't require a year of pay stubs to prove stable employment, is "the average person" going to run away? Of course not--he's going to figure the loan officer knows the loan business better than he does.

Personally, I would never trust an ARM except in a case that I knew for sure I'd only keep a house for a year or less...but I already know I"m not "average," and we know that loan officers purposely de-emphasized the dangers of ARMs to homebuyers.

Let's say I ran any retail store and discovered that one of my cashiers was giving unofficial "half-price" deals to her friends. Who has the responsibility here? Am I going after her friends who just grinned and said, "Thanks," or am I going after the employee who was charged with the responsibility of sticking to my requirements?

The basic bottom line is that the people charged with making good loans, the people who knew the mortgage business, deliberately made bad loans and then deliberately hid them among good loans.


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airfrogusmc
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Sep 29, 2011 16:50 |  #45

603media wrote in post #13183694 (external link)
Guys, can you please take the politics and wall street stuff to another thread? It's hard to read the relevant posts with all your back-and-forth off-topic stuff. :)

Sorry I didn't see anything political...

But this is really a no win discussion and as I've shown its been going on for decades and decades. The ones that would probably benefit most from it are the most resistant. My opinion is, like I said earlier, let the market find price and quality points.




  
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