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Thread started 11 Oct 2011 (Tuesday) 09:57
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5d or 7d what should I do.

 
cremerfring
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Oct 11, 2011 09:57 |  #1

Hi everyone,

My first post and of course I need a little help. I've been into photography for some time, even remember the dark room and rangefinder cameras :D

I've had a Canon 1000d for some time with basically just the kit lens but now want to progress further.

I have a healthy budget of nearly £3200 and have narrowed it down to these two options:

Option One

Canon 5d FF
24-105 F4 USM IS
70-200 F2.8 USM IS

Option 2

Canon 7d
10-20 F3.5-4.5
17-55 F2.8 IS
70-200 F2.8 USM IS

I'm having great difficulty in deciding if I should go FF or not. If I decide to go FF then a 17-40 F4 will be on the cards when more money is available.

Any help.

Mick


Canon 6d - Canon 100mm F2.8L Macro - Canon 28mm F1.8 - Tamron SP 150-600mm G2 - Canon Speedlite 430EX III-RT

  
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RPCrowe
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Oct 11, 2011 10:01 |  #2

Here is an alternate suggestion...

Keep your 1000D, get a 7D + 17-55mm f/2.8 IS and 70-200mm f/4L IS plus a 430EX ii flash...

Shoot with two cameras. The 17-55mm pairs beautifully with two 1.6x cameras and the weight of the setup is roughly the same as a single camera with 17-55mm + 70-200mm f/2.8L (series) lens.....


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gonzogolf
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Oct 11, 2011 10:02 |  #3

It all comes down to what you like to shoot. The 5D is phenomenal for portrait and landscape work. Things where speed and reach are not essential. The 7D gives you a superior focusing system, and the extra reach for sports work.




  
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cremerfring
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Oct 11, 2011 10:13 as a reply to  @ gonzogolf's post |  #4

That idea is worth considering RP.

One of my hobbies is bird watching and of course a natural progression is to start taking photo's of what I see hence the 70-200. On a crop camera like the 7d the reach will be much better then a FF.

I also enjoy street photography which I would imagine would be better with the 5d and a fast prime.


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kf095
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Oct 11, 2011 10:20 as a reply to  @ cremerfring's post |  #5

Get 70-200 now and wait little more. May be new 5D will have AF good enough for birds.
17-40, 50 (even 50 1.8 has good IQ and range on FF) and 70-200 is great combo for landscapes and city photography on 5D.
You'll have much better range compare to 24-105.
50 1.8 (1.4, 1.2) is good for night shots in the city and 17-40 will be fast enough for hand held shots in the evening.


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cremerfring
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Oct 11, 2011 10:28 |  #6

kf095 wrote in post #13234609 (external link)
Get 70-200 now and wait little more. May be new 5D will have AF good enough for birds.
17-40, 50 (even 50 1.8 has good IQ and range on FF) and 70-200 is great combo for landscapes and city photography on 5D.
You'll have much better range compare to 24-105.
50 1.8 (1.4, 1.2) is good for night shots in the city and 17-40 will be fast enough for hand held shots in the evening.

So you are saying ditch the 24-105 and go with:

17-40L F4
50 F1.4 USM
70-200 F2.8 USM IS

I like the sound of this set up.


Canon 6d - Canon 100mm F2.8L Macro - Canon 28mm F1.8 - Tamron SP 150-600mm G2 - Canon Speedlite 430EX III-RT

  
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Edwin ­ Herdman
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Oct 11, 2011 11:25 |  #7

Before reading all the usual useless declarations about what you should or shouldn't do, please consider what it actually is you photograph. This will determine what you should end up getting. Anything else is just somebody's opinion about what they would do or, worse, they are just guessing what it is you need - which may be very far from what you actually do.

If you do bird photography, 3000 pounds won't go very far. It will get you a new lens (or maybe a used 500mm f/4) and maybe a teleconverter if you're lucky, but you still might end up wanting more.

If you do photography at shorter focal lengths then 3000 pounds should go far enough and then some.

I could say "you aren't set up for professional portraits without a full frame camera and a 135mm f/2L," and that would be true - but 135mm f/2L is quite long for some "everyday" uses and might disappoint you if you take a lot of indoors group portraits or outdoors architecture. If I said "you aren't set up for architecture without a TS-E 24mm f/3.5L II" that could be viewed as accurate too, but already we've used most of your budget and you now have a specialized lens with something of a learning curve and no AF.

So when posting these threads, please post your targeted uses for your camera, or please say what it is you would see yourself using with each of those lenses.

Three lenses, even if one is the 50mm f/1.4, is too much for me to carry. I'd rather carry one six pound lens (Sigma 120-300mm f/2.8 OS) with the camera attached to it than have three lenses, with two slung over my shoulder - especially in wind where I don't want to change lenses anyway. It may sound strange, but you often can get away with using just one lens, even a specialized one, for everything if you're persistent enough. Carrying around the equivalent of a lens store will not only burden you but you need to spend time changing lenses, by which time "the decisive moment" may have disappeared.

Good luck with whatever it is you decide!




  
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amfoto1
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Oct 11, 2011 11:36 |  #8

Hi Mick and welcome to POTN...

Hate to tell you this, but 70-200 will be nowhere near long enough for birding... even if you add a 1.4X. It might be marginally long enough with a 2X, in which case I'd recommend the Mark II lens and Mark III 2X teleconverter, for the image quality of that combo... except that's a pricey setup that will use up a lot of your budget.

This is not a knock against 70-200... All four of the Canon are great lenses and mine is easily my single most used lens (a lot of sports photography), with one of my 300mm lenses a close second, and one or another shorter "standard" zoom as third most used.

Before you buy any 70-200, go handle the f4 and f2.8 versions in a store. The f4s are much more compact and lighter weight... not to mention less expensive. Of course, if you need f2.8, then only that will do.

For birds, a crop camera will be the best choice (for the "extra reach" of the crop) and I'd suggest at a minimum get 300/4 IS plus 1/4X. (300/2.8 IS is even better, can be used with both 1.4X and 2X, but is a whole heck of a lot more expensive, plus is not very handholdable so add another $1000 US or so on top of the cost of the lens for a solid tripod/gimbal setup.)

Some folks really like the 400/5.6 for birding, but it's going to be more of a monopod or tripod lens since it doesn't have IS. It also can't take a teleconverter as conveniently, due to it's f5.6 aperture.

Or consider a zoom.... Canon 100-400 IS is popular. Or Sigma 120-400 OS. Or Sigma 150-500 OS. None can be used very effectively with a teleconverter, though. And a prime will be a bit sharper at the long end. Sigma 120-300/2.8 is a more versatile choice, that can take a teleconverter, but at a considerably higher cost.

These are all just marginally long enough on a crop camera, for birding. You'll still need patience and/or stalking skills and/or attractants.

Actually, most serious birders will tell you no lens is long enough.... If you get a 500mm, you'll still find subjects just out of reach and will want an 600mm at times... If you get that, you'll occasionally wish you had a 800mm! That's just the nature of bird photography.

BIT are quite different than BIF (Birds in Trees vs Birds in Flight). Most recent crop cameras can handle both pretty well.... 7D has some unique focusing modes that can be useful for each (Spot Focus for BIT, Zone Focus or Expansion Points Focus for BIF, if they are against a plain/distant background.)

If birding is something you think you'll do a lot, I'd consider camera and lens for that first, then work backwards to fill in the rest of the system.

With 7D, I'd consider Canon EF-S 10-22 the top wide angle choice (it's amazingly good controlling flare, for such a wide lens). Personally I chose a considerably less expensive lens that's also quite good: Tokina 12-24/4. Not quite as wide or quite as amazing handling flare, as the Canon is... but it sells for a few hundred US $ less. Others like the Toki 11-16/2.8... I don't really need f2.8 on an UWA lens. And others like the Siggy 10-20 (now in two versions, one with variable aperture and a more expensive one with fixed f3.5). There's also Tamron 10-24 and Siggy 8-16.

Along with that UWA, you'll likely want a "standard" zoom: 24-105L IS is the premium choice.... 28-135 IS will give just as good images at 1/4 the cost, just has a variable aperture and, though it's solid mid-grade build quality, it's not as well built or sealed as the L. I have and use the 24-70/2.8L, but also have had a couple 28-135s as backups over the years and still have one... Tried out but never could justify the 24-105 personally. Other folks feel differently and love it, though.

Normally I'd point toward a faster f2.8 "standard" zoom (17-55/2.8, 24-70/2.8 or similar from Tamron, Sigma). But if you are considering some fast, compact primes for street photography, too, then you might not need a particularly fast walk-around zoom, too.

For street photography, with 7D I'd take my 20/2.8, 28/1.8, 50/1.4 and 85/1.8. With my 5DII, I'd probably use the same but add 135/2 to my camera bag. Pick and choose whatever you like to use for this type of shooting... moderately wide (20, 28) or short tele (50, 85) or a combo that makes you happy.

I agree with what Edwin wrote above, you really need to consider your priorities... what you want to shoot most... then work backward from that. This will tell you what lenses you need, as well as what camera might serve best.

Previous post is also correct: 5DII is great choice for portraits, landscapes, architecture... thanks to it's loads of detail, control over depth of field. It's also the high ISO/low light winner (by about a stop). 7D is great choice for action, moving subjects due to it's AF performance, and the "extra reach" of a cropper is useful with small critters. Either camera can be used for the opposite purposes, of course, it just will be a bit less "adept" at it.... So just choose which type of shooting will be most important to you. Both cameras have features that are useful for macro... Full frame is nice because you can use smaller apertures before diffraction issues set in... OTOH, the 7D has special macro AI Servo functionality, but only with certain Canon macro lenses.

Other cameras in the Canon line-up might serve quite well, too... Perhaps if more budget is needed for lenses, or not. For example, 50D can handle action very well, too, though it's got a much less complex/sophisticated/​customizable AF system than the 7D. It's also about one stop lower high ISO capable and slightly lower resolution (15MP vs 18MP). OTOH, it can be bought for considerably less, likely leaving enough for another lens or two. 60D isn't a bad choice, either... it's articulated LCD might be handy for macro, low or high angle shooting, or for video (which 50D can't do at all). OTOH, 60D doesn't have AF Micro Adjust feature, which 50D, 5DII and 7D all have. It also doesn't have a PC sync socket for wired, manual studio strobes, while the other three cameras do (might be a non-issue... many folks use radio triggers anyway). 7D and 60D have built-in wireless flash control, which the other cameras lack... Though frankly I'd still rather use an ST-E2 module that will work on any EOS camera.

Anyway, I think you get the idea... That there are more things to consider and prioritize, based upon what you want to shoot, that will guide you to the camera and lenses that would be your best choices.


Alan Myers (external link) "Walk softly and carry a big lens."
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boclcown
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Oct 11, 2011 11:43 |  #9

Full frame is amazing and will really reap the true benefits of L lenses. Go for the 5D and don't look back.


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Edwin ­ Herdman
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Oct 11, 2011 11:49 |  #10

amfoto1 wrote in post #13234956 (external link)
Or consider a zoom.... Canon 100-400 IS is popular. Or Sigma 120-400 OS. Or Sigma 150-500 OS. None can be used very effectively with a teleconverter, though.

120-400mm OS is garbage; never sharp enough even at f/8. I'd expect the Canon to be better because Canon optimized the tele end for sharpness, not so much the wide; Sigma did the reverse for some unfathomable reason.

Although, if anybody really wants to slog around with the 120-400mm, I'd be willing to sell mine far below the new price :)

120-300mm f/2.8 OS is basically the whole budget, without a teleconverter, but it's getting close to being sharp enough. If you can fill the frame at the far end, it's probably sharp enough for anything but large prints.




  
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Daan37
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Oct 11, 2011 11:54 |  #11

cremerfring wrote in post #13234581 (external link)
One of my hobbies is bird watching and of course a natural progression is to start taking photo's of what I see hence the 70-200. On a crop camera like the 7d the reach will be much better then a FF.

200mm (on crop) won't be long enough most of the time.

I also enjoy street photography which I would imagine would be better with the 5d and a fast prime.

Depends... on how much light there is, how much distance there is to your subject(s), how fast your subject is moving, how you define 'street photography', etc.


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cremerfring
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Oct 11, 2011 12:05 as a reply to  @ boclcown's post |  #12

Thanks Allan and Edwin for those great in depth replies.

It's funny how I think £3k is alot of money but in reality isn't much at all when you consider how much these large lenses cost. Deep down inside I knew birding was expensive as I've seen and looked through fellow twitcher's kit while observing in some hide.

Birding aside I still think the 70-200 F2.8 is a great lens and is a great all rounder, link it with a 2x convertor and I'll get about 400mm (a lot longer on a 7d). That will be ideal for capturing my son playing 7 a side football.

I can always get bigger lenses as and when money becomes available.

Edwin you also have a good point about lugging different kit around and it becoming a chore to do so, this is something else I have to take in to account. At the moment I take with me in my camera bag a 1000d, 18-55, 55-200. I don't find this to restrictive.


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kf095
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Oct 11, 2011 12:59 |  #13

cremerfring wrote in post #13234646 (external link)
So you are saying ditch the 24-105 and go with:

17-40L F4
50 F1.4 USM
70-200 F2.8 USM IS

I like the sound of this set up.

Just add TC, like x1.4 or even x2 for 2.8 it will be 5.6 on 400mm for birds.
17-40 gives you landscape for sure. 50 1.4 is fast and versatile on 5d.
70-200 works as portrait, landscape as well.

I think, turn point at your case is if you like birds photography more then anything else.
If it is priority - 7d is the king of the hill.


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rick_reno
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Oct 11, 2011 13:30 |  #14

I'd get the 5d, for what you describe you like taking photos of it would be a very good fit.




  
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r.morales
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Oct 11, 2011 13:48 |  #15

My bag has the 10-22 , 17-55 and the 70-200 mkII .
I pop the 2X III on the 70-200 and hello birds .
FF there is nothing in the 17-55 class [2.8 w / IS]
Birding the 70-200 is the same as a 102 - 320 on FF


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