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Thread started 13 Oct 2011 (Thursday) 11:40
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Help me with my night shots

 
deronsizemore
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Oct 13, 2011 11:40 |  #1

I'm on vacation this week and have been trying to take some night shots on the beach. They are turning out okay, but from my reading online, I don't think I'm focusing correctly.

I was under the impression that at night, you just set the lens to manual focus, turn it to the infinity mark and go. After doing more reading, I'm seeing that this isn't the best approach?

If I'm on the beach at night, there's a lot of hotels and condos lining the beach, all lit up. So, should I auto focus on one of them in the distance and then flip the lens to manual focus so that point is locked and then snap the shot?

What's the best approach here?


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Oct 13, 2011 13:01 |  #2

If it already auto focused why is there a need to flip to manual? Have you tried just using auto focus only? I always use AF for night shots.

When you say you think you many not be focusing correctly you must have a concern about your night shots. Perhaps more detail on what the issue is or better yet an image with EXIF. It may be something else.


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deronsizemore
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Oct 13, 2011 13:13 |  #3

digital paradise wrote in post #13246052 (external link)
If it already auto focused why is there a need to flip to manual?

This is what I also couldn't understand. I just read it online so I didn't know if I was missing something.

digital paradise wrote in post #13246052 (external link)
Have you tried just using auto focus only? I always use AF for night shots.

I have not. I need to try it tonight as I'm sure there's enough lights around that I'll be able to AF on something.

digital paradise wrote in post #13246052 (external link)
you say you think you many not be focusing correctly you must have a concern about your night shots. Perhaps more detail on what the issue is or better yet an image with EXIF. It may be something else.

I really just don't know what I don't know, if that makes sense? I had always read that you just set your focus to manual, turn the dial to infinity and then snap away. But after reading more, I see things where people are using flash lights, laser pointers, etc. So, I just want to make sure I'm doing the best I can with what I have.

Here are two shots that I took last night. Tripod was used with a remote. It just seems like the hotels in the foreground could be sharper, I guess. Or if you have any other tips to improve these, I'm all ears.

IMAGE NOT FOUND
HTTP response: NOT FOUND | MIME changed to 'image/png'


IMAGE NOT FOUND
HTTP response: NOT FOUND | MIME changed to 'image/png'


So, just use autofocus if the lens will autofocus. Simple enough. Let's assume that the lens will not autofocus, I don't have a laser pointer or flashlight or anything to allow autofocus to work. Should I then flip it to manual and set it to infinity on the dial? I've also read some things about going past infinity which didn't make a lot of sense to me.

thanks!

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Miller-UK
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Oct 13, 2011 13:55 |  #4

I'm no expert but telling us what setting you used might help.

If it were me I'd start off with a small aperture to try to get as much in focus as possible.

Also remember that a long exposure will produce noise which I guess would make the buildings look a little blurry.

Something you could try if your tripod will do it is to get the camera right down on the sand to give a different perspective.

Good luck.


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digital ­ paradise
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Oct 13, 2011 14:51 |  #5

You don't have "Image Editing OK" enabled but I am going to take a chance on this one because of your focusing concern. I think your focusing is fine so you can rest easy about that. I just sharpened this up a bit in PS. Maybe a bit too much but I did it just to show you.

IMAGE: http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d74/Zenon1/nightg2.jpg

Digital sensors are quirky when to comes long exposures. What you see now is the lights and windows do not look crisp. The windows do not look square, they look rounded. This is not a focus issue. This is because the light begins to flare out from a longer exposure. I have an unorthodox approach to this. I discovered underexposing by one stop will make your lights and windows look crisper. You can correct the extra noise created, etc later in PS.

A few more questions.

1. Do you have a cheap UV filter on? If you do take it off.

2. Is your tripod sturdy? Are you using mirror lockup? Do you give it time to settle before shooting?

3. There is no EXIF with your images. Miller-UK pointed out aperture. Try f8 and at higher ISO like 800 or 1600 to reduce exposure time.

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tonylong
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Oct 13, 2011 14:53 |  #6

The camera/lens should have no problem with using AF on the lit up buildings. Get some practice with either using the center point to focus on the buildings and then recomposing with your focus lock, or using an outer point to AF, or using the center point AF on a building and then switching the lens to MF so you can recompose and get the shot.

I can't see the Exif in the image -- what aperture did you use?

I'm asking, because a lot of the "old school film" shooters shot with very narrow apertures like f/22 for their landscape shots, but going narrow like that and then enlarging can show the effects of diffraction, an overall sharpening of the image. Shooting with wider format film had/has more leeway, but smaller film formats as well as our smaller digital sensors will show this problem at viewing sizes that can be common, so it is advised that you use apertures that are wider. So, for the Rebel and xxD/7D sensors "they" suggest an aperture of f/11 at the narrowest.

Now, how that works for you is really a matter of experience and preference, but it's something to bear in mind as you are learning!


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Oct 13, 2011 15:04 |  #7

I think aperture makes a big difference at night shooting like Tony suggested. When I took a fireworks workshop the instructor suggested f8 which is close to f11. Try both.

My method of underexposing is probably no the best but it works for me. An internet search will come up with methods to improve night shots. I have done a lot of investigating in this area.


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Oct 13, 2011 15:10 |  #8

Forgot to mention. You can try the higher ISO's I mentioned but it is always better at lower ISO. Try some at 400 as well.


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tonylong
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Oct 13, 2011 15:14 |  #9

digital paradise wrote in post #13246620 (external link)
Forgot to mention. You can try the higher ISO's I mentioned but it is always better at lower ISO. Try some at 400 as well.

Yeah, with a good tripod and good technique, you should be able to use a lower ISO, I agree.


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deronsizemore
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Oct 13, 2011 16:09 |  #10

Thanks all for the advice. The EXIF data is as follows:

First image:

30 sec @ f/5.0, ISO 100

Second Image:

30 sec @ f/7.1, ISO 400

digital paradise wrote in post #13246528 (external link)
You don't have "Image Editing OK" enabled but I am going to take a chance on this one because of your focusing concern. I think your focusing is fine so you can rest easy about that. I just sharpened this up a bit in PS. Maybe a bit too much but I did it just to show you.

Thanks, looks overdone a bit as you said, but definitely shows what can be done to clean it up. I sharpened a bit in Lightroom, but I hate to start seeing a lot of grain so I tend to shy away from a lot of sharpening. As for image editing, I'll go change that to OK as I definitely don't mind people showing me stuff.

QUOTED IMAGE

digital paradise wrote in post #13246528 (external link)
Digital sensors are quirky when to comes long exposures. What you see now is the lights and windows do not look crisp. The windows do not look square, they look rounded. This is not a focus issue. This is because the light begins to flare out from a longer exposure. I have an unorthodox approach to this. I discovered underexposing by one stop will make your lights and windows look crisper. You can correct the extra noise created, etc later in PS.

Ah, that make sense. Was wondering why the buildings almost seemed rounded in places.

digital paradise wrote in post #13246528 (external link)
A few more questions.

1. Do you have a cheap UV filter on? If you do take it off.

2. Is your tripod sturdy? Are you using mirror lockup? Do you give it time to settle before shooting?

3. There is no EXIF with your images. Miller-UK pointed out aperture. Try f8 and at higher ISO like 800 or 1600 to reduce exposure time.

I have this protection filter on the lens (trying to keep sand and stuff out of it if possible): http://www.amazon.com …ital-Filter/dp/B0009K7CZC (external link)

Tripod isn't the best of the best, but yes, I think it was sturdy. I had the legs pressed into the sand a good piece.

I just came across mirror lockup earlier. I know it's supposed to reduce camera shake even more, but I'm not sure how to use it exactly. I need to read more on it. These pics were taken without using mirror lockup.


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deronsizemore
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Oct 13, 2011 16:16 |  #11

Miller-UK wrote in post #13246283 (external link)
I'm no expert but telling us what setting you used might help.

If it were me I'd start off with a small aperture to try to get as much in focus as possible.

Also remember that a long exposure will produce noise which I guess would make the buildings look a little blurry.

Something you could try if your tripod will do it is to get the camera right down on the sand to give a different perspective.

EXIF Data is above.

Thanks for the advice. Never thought about getting the tripod right down to the sand for a different perspective. For these shots, I had it at about knee height, so I had to get on my knees to look through the view finder.

tonylong wrote in post #13246537 (external link)
The camera/lens should have no problem with using AF on the lit up buildings. Get some practice with either using the center point to focus on the buildings and then recomposing with your focus lock, or using an outer point to AF, or using the center point AF on a building and then switching the lens to MF so you can recompose and get the shot.

I can't see the Exif in the image -- what aperture did you use?

EXIF data posted above.

I'll try AF tonight and focus on one of the buildings. I just didn't try last night because in my noobness, I was under the impression that AF just wouldn't work at night and I needed to set it to MF to infinity. :oops:

When you say "Get some practice with either using the center point to focus on the buildings and then recomposing with your focus lock" do you simply mean to just keep the shutter button pressed half way down while I recompose?


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Crafty
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Oct 13, 2011 16:26 |  #12

Yeah just use autofocus on a lit up building, no need to switch to manual.

BTW I think the issue you are coming across with manually focussing to infinity it actually finding infinity.
Taken from another post here, this is a page from a lens manual.. infinity can move around a bit:

IMG NOTICE: [NOT AN IMAGE URL, NOT RENDERED INLINE]

So depending on temperature infinity could actually be anywhere between the vertical line and the laid down 8 symbol.

I think your aperture is maybe a little low, get it up around f8+

The other thing is how were you pressing the shutter ? you might of been introducing a little camera shake when pressing the shutter button. To rule this out either use a remote release or use the 2 second delay shoot mode, this should allow the shake to disappear before the shot is taken.

When you say "Get some practice with either using the center point to focus on the buildings and then recomposing with your focus lock" do you simply mean to just keep the shutter button pressed half way down while I recompose?

Yep, do this if you need to re-compose after obtaining focus lock.


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digital ­ paradise
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Oct 13, 2011 17:25 |  #13

deronsizemore wrote in post #13246891 (external link)
Thanks all for the advice. The EXIF data is as follows:

First image:

30 sec @ f/5.0, ISO 100

Second Image:

30 sec @ f/7.1, ISO 400

Ah, that make sense. Was wondering why the buildings almost seemed rounded in places.

I have this protection filter on the lens (trying to keep sand and stuff out of it if possible): http://www.amazon.com …ital-Filter/dp/B0009K7CZC (external link)

Tripod isn't the best of the best, but yes, I think it was sturdy. I had the legs pressed into the sand a good piece.

I just came across mirror lockup earlier. I know it's supposed to reduce camera shake even more, but I'm not sure how to use it exactly. I need to read more on it. These pics were taken without using mirror lockup.

Take the filter off for your night shots and keep it on for everything else if you are concerned about sand. If you want to use a filter you may want to spend a little more money. You get what you pay for.


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tonylong
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Oct 13, 2011 17:32 |  #14

deronsizemore wrote in post #13246935 (external link)
EXIF Data is above.

Thanks for the advice. Never thought about getting the tripod right down to the sand for a different perspective. For these shots, I had it at about knee height, so I had to get on my knees to look through the view finder.

So, a sturdy tripod. Mirror LockUp won't do much for a 30 sec. exposure. Two things that can help a lot are to turn off your lens IS (they tend to "drift" when on a tripod because it "winds down" and turns off). And then, using either a cable release, a wireless remote, or at least the self timer of the camera will cut down on camera shake from you pressing the shutter button.

EXIF data posted above.

I'll try AF tonight and focus on one of the buildings. I just didn't try last night because in my noobness, I was under the impression that AF just wouldn't work at night and I needed to set it to MF to infinity. :oops:

When you say "Get some practice with either using the center point to focus on the buildings and then recomposing with your focus lock" do you simply mean to just keep the shutter button pressed half way down while I recompose?

You can get the shutter lock by holding down the shutter button half-way as you recompose the shot or, after getting a focus achieved by swiching the lens to MF so you can recompose and get the shot without re-activating the AF.

One thing you mentioned, about your aperture being f/5 and f/7 -- well, for now, I'd suggest you stick with f/11. That will ensure that a good "range" of your image will be acceptably sharp, what we call a "wide Depth Of Field" (DOF). That way, not just the buildings but also a lot toward the forground will be "apparenly in focus".

Now, there is nothing wrong with the MF approach, and nothing wrong with setting the lens at infinity, the question is will this benefit you? Some scenes, sure, if you can't actually use the AF! But, in these two scenes, the buildings have both light and good detail, which are the things our AF looks for! and, since it is important for you to have them properly in focus, then it makes sense for you to catch them with your AF!

The other approach to the AF is to use an outer focus point -- the one that is either on a subject or close to the subject. I use them all the time, you just have to learn to work with them.

Or, one other thing you can learn to do is to go to Live View and, in Manual Focus, zoom the Live View all the way in and centered on the subject you want to focus on, and take your time to adjust the focus, wait for jiggling to die down, repeat, and then take the shot. To do this effectively, I'd start with a quick attempt to get a "reasonable" focus, so the distant subject is not just a blur, or, in this case yeah, you could start at Infinity. You do realize that in normal conditions Infinity is not at the Symbol but at the inverted "L"...?


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digital ­ paradise
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Oct 13, 2011 17:42 |  #15

Mirror lockup won't do anything for the duration of the 30 seconds but at that first second when the mirror pops up you get vibration and the damage can be done right there. After the mirror pops up I always wait 5 to 7 seconds before opening the shutters.


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