Need recommendation on how to move up the lighting food chain

I currently have only used Speedlites for on and off camera bounce and fill flash. I have a 580EX II and a couple of 430 EX II's that mostly use for weddings and indoor events.

I want to get some lighting for a small studio but I have to admit I have no idea where to start. Should I just get some umbrellas or other types of diffusers to use with the speedlites or should I be looking at some kind of strobes with power sources? Also, what should I be budgeting to get this off the ground, $500, $1000, more?

I've looked at this forum and catalogs and seeing einsteins, allanbee, etc but I really don't understand their capability and the trade off of what to choose. Any help is appreciated. Also a good solid up-todate reference would be a big help.

Thanks ind advance.

Hi Steve!
Welcome to just one more of the many ways to spend your kids inheritance!
First off, it would help to decide what you want to accomplish with your studios lights and how much space you will be working with. If you are mainly shooting portraits of individuals and small groups, do you want to retain wide apertures? Are you planning on shooting product and need large areas and depth of field?
So before I start spouting off (nothing worse than a photographer who is a gear nut!) a laundry list of gear, let's find out what you want to accomplish!

Stan,

Thanks for helping stear this. I was thinking of portraits of 1-4 individuals. One in a while I will have go mobile and bring them to a place with more room and a larger group but I coul try to rent for those few cases. Product type shooting interest me as well and a place I think I can get som supplementary income.

Steve,
I would recommend you spend a fair bit of time doing as much research as possible before you start buying things. This whole lighting equipment path is another situation where you are buying into a "system".
Many of the things you will buying can be pretty much universal ( stands, etc ) but other things may be specific to the brand or style. The prices are all over the map, from some of the cheap-charlie-chinese-crap on fleabay, that isn't worth bringing home, to high-end european stuff whose price will take your breath away. Somewhere in the middle is where most of us end up. Research ahead of time is your best course of action, and if you have the chance, spend a half day with a local friend/photo buddy that has a studio and some equipment. You will learn more in than first 4 hours or so than you can imagine.
A good place to start reading is here:

http://www.prophotolif​e.com/video-library/

....also, check out Mark Wallace on adoramatv.com
He has many, many episodes, and some of them are studio lighting related. He is one of the very best teachers out there today. Excellent stuff.

george m w wrote in post #13308801
Steve,
This whole lighting equipment path is another situation where you are buying into a "system".

This is so true and something often overlooked. When buying into a lighting system you need to not only look at where you are but where you want to go with your photography and see if the system you are looking at will accommodate that growth. For me that search lead me to Elinchrom for the scope of their product line and the relative lower cost compared to Profoto or Broncolor. But everybody's needs are different and what was right for me might not be right for you.

Steve, I did the same thing a couple of years ago and ended up with Elinchrom, mostly because of the awesome modifiers and the portability/usability of the Ranger and Quadra systems.

Dick Clay wrote in post #13313953
Steve, I did the same thing a couple of years ago and ended up with Elinchrom, mostly because of the awesome modifiers and the portability/usability of the Ranger and Quadra systems.

Had a chance to stop by K & S photo in Palo Alto, CA. They are a high end photo store with an entire lighting department (we don't have these type of stores here in maine). He recommended this Elinchrom 2-strobe system with D-Lites. He also recommended strobes for portraits, as long as it wasn't children. For children he found with continuous light sources were better. I also didn't realize that this type of system doesn't have a power pack of some sort. The stobes plug into the wall and it was about $800. For a system with a battery to take you there was a significant uplift in price to ~ $2000 - $2500!.

He also talked to me about umbrellas vs. soft boxes but I need more help understanding what is better or how the differ.

So I learned that I should think about how many Watt-Second a system puts out. Maybe 200 WS is appropriate? Also he showed me a system with an additional "Hair" light.

^^You can buy external battery packs and add them to your system.

As others have mentioned, when you purchase a light, you're buying into a system. With lighting equipment, it adds up very very quickly.

Before purchasing the actual equipment, you may want to purchase a lighting DVD or two to familiarize yourself and perhaps figure out what you need. I recommend:

* Zack Arias' OneLight DVD
* Zack Arias' CreativeLive Studio Photography 3-day workshop (online download)
* David Hobby's Strobist - lighting with just speedlites
* David Hobby's Strobist Lighting in Layers - lighting with multiple speedlites

You may be spending over $100 per dvd, but that's just a drop a bucket in comparison to what you'll be spending on equipment.

xcel730 wrote in post #13320159
Before purchasing the actual equipment, you may want to purchase a lighting DVD or two to familiarize yourself and perhaps figure out what you need. I recommend:

* Zack Arias' CreativeLive Studio Photography 3-day workshop (online download)

This, absolutely.

swldstn wrote in post #13320087
Had a chance to stop by K & S photo in Palo Alto, CA. They are a high end photo store with an entire lighting department (we don't have these type of stores here in maine). He recommended this Elinchrom 2-strobe system with D-Lites. He also recommended strobes for portraits, as long as it wasn't children. For children he found with continuous light sources were better. I also didn't realize that this type of system doesn't have a power pack of some sort. The stobes plug into the wall and it was about $800. For a system with a battery to take you there was a significant uplift in price to ~ $2000 - $2500!.

K & S is a great place.

I think strobes are fine for everyone except babies. There are people that believe you should not use flash with babies. Clearly flash through a big soft box is not as bad as on camera flash directed at the baby. I'm not sure if there is any real evidence one way or the other concerning the effect of flash/strobes on babies, but if you are planning to photograph babies, you should think about continuous lights.

Many indoor locations have inconsistent types of lighting, mixtures of tungsten, florescent and sunlight coming in through windows, perhaps colored windows. This light does not mix will with your strobe or continuous lights. You will end up with different white balance in different parts of the picture, which is almost impossible to correct.

When possible you want to overpower the ambient light with your strobes, not only on the subject, but also on the background. Sometimes this just isn't possible (like taking pictures in a big church), but for studio style portraits it should be possible to light the subject and the background with your lights.

You can do that with continuous lights too, but you basically need a windowless studio where you have complete control over the ambient light. Otherwise your lights will be so bright that the subject will be squinting. You could also try closing curtains and turning off many of the lights, but that is not practical for lots of location shoots. You may be able to do that though when shooting babies.

Two lights is a start, but you will quickly want hair lights and background lights too.

I believe that some people have been able to use the Paul Buff Vagabond Mini portable batter power pack with other brands of strobes. It is only $240.

swldstn wrote in post #13320087
He also talked to me about umbrellas vs. soft boxes but I need more help understanding what is better or how the differ.

Shoot through umbrellas and large soft boxes both give very soft light with soft edges to any shadows. The main difference is the soft box is more directional with its light, where the umbrella spreads the light over a wider arc. You will get more light reflected off other things in the room falling on the subject. If the things it is reflecting off of is not white, it may add an unwanted color cast to your picture. For this reason most photographers use soft boxes in the studio and indoors. It gives them more control of where the light is going. Outdoors, where reflections are not as big a problem, I frequently use shoot through umbrellas, because they are easier to set up and tear down quickly.

swldstn wrote in post #13320087
So I learned that I should think about how many Watt-Second a system puts out. Maybe 200 WS is appropriate? Also he showed me a system with an additional "Hair" light.

You can certainly work indoors with a 200 w/s system. You could add more powerful strobes later and use the 200 w/s for background, kicker or some other usage. I'm not sure a 200 w/s is enough in some really bright sunlight situations where you need to light a large group, but you need to start some where with a budget you can afford.

As some others have pointed out, strobes range in price from very inexpensive to extremely expensive. The mounting system for soft boxes, reflectors and grids are not usually compatible between different brands. This means only certain kinds of soft boxes will work on a given strobe. If you decide to change strobes brands later, you may have to replace some or all of your lighting modifiers. Before buying strobes you need to look at the selection, quality and price of modifiers available too.

That said, Elinchrom seems to have good quality strobes and a nice selection of modifiers at prices that are not too outrageous.

And this is another one of those things where I would urge the OP to sit down and really do his homework. Because there are some brands/styles where you have few options, and others where you will have many choices. I don't know much about Elinchrom ( I own alienbee ), but I believe Eilinchrom is one of those that you can source light modifiers from various places. You may need some sort of an adpater between the light and modifier, but maybe not. My point is that if you look at a given brand of light, but are put off by the price of the modifiers, then dig deeper into it, and you may find there are other modifiers available for less money that will fit the light of your choice.

Many variables, but once you get into it and start shooting with controlled lighting, you will be hooked. Serious fun !

I recommend that you purchase at least one or two decent quality real studio strobes with light stands; umbrellas or softboxes. The units don't have to be the top quality unless you plan on using them professionally in a studio environment (8 hours a day and 5 days a week).

My rationale in recommending "real" studio strobes over jury-rigging hotshoe flashes is simply that the real studio strobes are better in ALL WAYS except for when you are traveling and away from A/C power.

The studio strobe has:

1. A modeling light which is it's NUMBER ONE ADVANTAGE over jury-rigged hot shoe flashes. The modeling light allows WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get) shooting, to borrow a computer display term. You are not shooting blind with the modeling light letting you see a pretty close approximation of what you will get from the flash...

2. The real studio flash can be used on a light stand or modified with softboxes or umbrellas with no extra accessories required...

3. The real studio flash is powered by A/C, not puny AA batteries while cause an increase in recharge time when they grow weaker...

4. The real studio flash is a LOT MORE POWERFUL than even the bigger hotshoe flashes...

5. The real studio flash is most often equipped with optical slaves making the triggering of the set quite easy and inexpensive...

6. The real studio flash has a reflector far larger than the hotshoe flash. As a comparison, my Canon 550EX has a reflector approximately 3 square inches in size. My older White Lightning flash has a reflector over 120 square inches in size. Soft boxes or unbrellas are used to increase the light source size. Trying to modify the miniscule hotshoe light into a larger light source is, IMO, like boiling ice cubes to make tea. It can be done but, it sure isn't efficient. Additionally, many real studio strobes have reflectors which can be removed. Bare bulb flash is great modified by a softbox...

7. Better price. You can equip yourself with decent studio flashes less expensively than you can Canon or Nikon OEM hotshoe flashes. What about Yungnuo hotshoe flashes you say? Well you can equip yourself with some usable Chinese studio strobes at about the price of the Chinese built Yungnuo hotshoe flashes and you don't have to pay extra for adapters to light stands or to attach umbrellas. What about used Vivitara? Yep they are less, expensive! Please revert back to #'s 1-6 above.

But, Joe McNalley uses hotshoe flashes to do his work! So would I if I were being paid to sponsor them.

Additionally, I have used hotshoe flashes for portraiture. I don't really like them but, I can use them. Heck, I can shoot a pretty decent portrait using window light and a reflector. I can use the hotshoes because, in my mind's eye, I have a pretty good idea of what light is going to do even when I don't see it. However, I learned my lighting using both continuous lighting and studio strobes with modeling lights. I don't really think it is that easy for a newbie to work with unseen light and trying to use the hotshoe flash stroboscopic effect as a pseudo-modeling light is a very poor substitute.

BUT I CAN'T USE STUDIO STROBES IN TTL! Right, you cannot. But neither can you use TTL with hotshoe flashes in manual mode!

Depending on what you will shoot and how much you want to spend you will probably end up with Alienbees or Elinchrom lights. AB's are less expensive and therefore less powerful for the most part, but more than powerful enough for what you are trying to do. I shoot with Ab's all the time and like mine a lot. That said, unless you go with the Einstein version of these lights you will have some color temperature inaccuracy. This is generally not a problem for portraits if you use a gray card, but if you do any catalog stuff its a problem. I have had issues with it because color consistency is just a little off and for that type of work that is unacceptable. The Elinchrom lights are very will liked but a bit more expensive. If I had a bigger budget I would have bought those in all likelihood. Good luck with your search.

I'm pretty much in agreement in all of the above. All I have to add is a recommendation for the low budget end. For example, if you have a low budget, I believe the best of the low budget stuff are the Flashpoints from Adorama. Many users on here have been pleased with them which is why I bought them. The 320M (160WS) is only $99 and is fully features with stepless output, a modeling light that adjusts along with output adjustment, the ability to trigger as an optical slave, and they have a full set of affordable and decent accessories like battery packs, soft boxes, barn doors, etc. They have some packaged kits with these lights that are a pretty good value. The only problem I run into with them is the occasional shot with the color temp being off. Maybe 1 in 30 shots does it and there is no rhyme or reason. But I shoot in RAW so that's easy enough to fix. I actually have a color style in DPP just for correcting it because when it is off, it is consistently off.

If you have the extra money to spend - I think most would recommend the Elinchrom over the Bees. I have worked with them and I think they are worth the extra cash...if you have it. That's my upgrade path when I wear these out....but so far they just keep on working.