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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EF and EF-S Lenses 
Thread started 30 Oct 2011 (Sunday) 00:01
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Is there an acceptable zoom for indoor sports/Gyms? Pics included.

 
jeffreynmandy
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Oct 30, 2011 00:01 |  #1

I'm still not very experienced in photography, but I think I'm past the beginner stage. I still find it very hard to get a super good motion shot indoors. These are my best yet, but I still have to turn up the ISO above 1600+, aperture at 2.8-3.5, shutter speed around 400-500, 580EX flash with high speed sync on. Is a 1.8 prime the only option to get the ISO back down to 400 or so, And without the need for a flash?


Taken with a 7d, 24-70mm f2.8L, and 580ex. I took these I just forgot to take my wife's copyright off when I edited them.

with flash

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twoshadows
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Oct 30, 2011 00:56 |  #2

NR is your friend. Also, you want to expose to the right with the 7d. Not sure about the gym you're shooting in, but there are no gym's where I live that will give 1/500s, f/1.8 and iso400 - iso1600 without flash is more realistic I think which, after looking at the exifs of your posted pics, is in line with the DIII gym I shoot in.

I will say that when I had the 7d I found myself shooting at iso12800 a lot to try to reduce noise, which I found to be a bit of a conundrum - (In a gym where the aperture and shutter speed are at their limits) to shoot to the right and try to reduce noise, one must raise the iso which increases noise. So, in my mind, the 7d is really an iso6400 max body because of the need to overexpose in an effort to reduce noise. Also, I found the 18mp RAW files were not really any better than their 10.1mp mRAW files at iso6400 and iso12800. My solution was to sell the 7d and get a 1DmkIII. The mkIII's high iso files are much more malleable, so no need to overexpose as much. I am now shooting 1/500s, f/2.8 iso3200 in the same gym I was shooting 1/500s, f/2.8 iso6400 with the 7d and the files are cleaner, so uprez better for large prints.

About f/1.8 lenses: The 85 is great for this purpose, but a little long on the 7d and is prone to PF. The ef50mm f/1.4 will work as long as there's not a lot of movement that you're trying to track going towards or away from you (I think for most Karate you'll be fine with this lens). The ef28mm f/1.8 is really an f/2-f/2.2 lens on a crop - meaning one must stop down 1/3-2/3 stops for better sharpness - so you don't gain much there. AND, with these three lenses you lose DoF when shot at or near wide open.

So, as usual, there's no free lunch. Maybe you should think about strobes if you really need to get to iso400?


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jeffreynmandy
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Oct 30, 2011 01:19 as a reply to  @ twoshadows's post |  #3

I kind of figured ISO 400 was unrealistic. Its kind of weird how, to the human eye it seemed nice and bright in there. But to the camera it wasn't. That's why I like the 7d, it seems to handle ISO better than the others I've had. I don't have the budget to justify upgrading any higher as the price jumps a lot when moving up to the 1d and 5d series. You hear all the time, oh its all in the lens. That actually has my wife wanting to downgrade. To a rebel. The lens is very important to an extent, but if the body it's on can't help the lens with low light situations, or times when you need a high fps, you'll just end up with a lot of oof and underexposed shots that look like dookie.


I'd also like to know how's the exposure on these, are they good shots or just ok? I really need to calibrate my monitor. You can be honest, it won't hurt my feelings:)


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twoshadows
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Oct 30, 2011 01:30 |  #4

No doubt in my mind that the 7d is a capable camera :) . Don't be afraid to shoot at iso6400 (overexposed by 2/3s - 1 full stop), shoot RAW (if you don't already) and pull it back down in post. You should end up with better files.

Here's one from the 7d at iso6400, f/2 (ef85mm f/1.8), 1/800s:

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Sdiver2489
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Oct 30, 2011 02:18 |  #5

twoshadows wrote in post #13327231 (external link)
No doubt in my mind that the 7d is a capable camera :) . Don't be afraid to shoot at iso6400 (overexposed by 2/3s - 1 full stop), shoot RAW (if you don't already) and pull it back down in post. You should end up with better files.

Here's one from the 7d at iso6400, f/2 (ef85mm f/1.8), 1/800s:

IMAGE NOT FOUND
HTTP response: NOT FOUND | MIME changed to 'image/gif'

If you are shooting at ISO6400 and overexposing by one full stop then you might as well had just shot at ISO3200.


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Oct 30, 2011 02:21 |  #6

Sdiver2489 wrote in post #13327306 (external link)
If you are shooting at ISO6400 and overexposing by one full stop then you might as well had just shot at ISO3200.

But the file would not have been as clean... :)

That was my problem with the 7d. To get acceptable results at high iso with the camera I needed to overexpose by a stop or so. :(


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JeffreyG
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Oct 30, 2011 08:20 |  #7

The gyms I shoot in tend to need ISO 6400 to ISO 12800 in order to achieve f/2.8 and 1/800 exposures. That's typical. All I can say is never underexpose, and learn to process images to control noise without smearing detail. One hint - you should still see noise when looking at 1:1 views.

One other point - HSS and flash isn't probably doing what you think it's doing for you. This will brighten shadows and give a bit of fill, but it will not brighten the highlights and it will not freeze the subject. For most sports shooting, you really need to decide on an ambient exposure (which is what you are shooting) or a flash exposure where you set the shutter speed to the synch limit and light the whole gym with powerful strobes.


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bob_r
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Oct 30, 2011 08:57 |  #8

jeffreynmandy wrote in post #13327089 (external link)
These are my best yet, but I still have to turn up the ISO above 1600+, aperture at 2.8-3.5, shutter speed around 400-500, 580EX flash with high speed sync on. Is a 1.8 prime the only option to get the ISO back down to 400 or so, And without the need for a flash?

According to the exif data, only your last shot was taken at f/2.8. All the rest were shot at f/4. Also, your flash did not fire on a number of these shots (example: when the second shot was taken, your flash didn't have time to recycle after taking the first shot).


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Oct 30, 2011 15:36 as a reply to  @ bob_r's post |  #9

Have to agree with Jeffrey---HSS and sports do not mix well--the duration is what freezes the action .

Bump up that ISO--and I use a small, simple bounce card to soften the light.


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Oct 30, 2011 18:54 |  #10

As others have noted, HSS flash may not help you much, if at all, for this kind of shot. HSS decreases the flash strength dramatically, and, because it works using a series of flash pulses while the shutter is open, will not freeze motion (as dave kadolph notes above). Your overall exposures mostly look pretty good in your sample shots (the exception being the fifth shot, where the subjects are appreciably less well-exposed than the audience in the bleachers, presumably because flash didn't fire in that one). It's interesting that only one was shot at f/2.8, and that one had the same shutter speed and high-ISO (ISO 4000) as one or two of the others shot at f/4. Theoretically, if the light was even and unchanging, at the same shutter speed you should have been able to drop the ISO a full stop and still gotten equal exposure at f/2.8 compared to your f/4 exposures. As with many things in life, this is all a tradeoff - shutter speed versus f/stop versus ISO. For these kind of shots, you will want to maximize shutter speed, and once you hit your maximum aperture (f/2.8 in this instance) your only option is to bump the ISO as needed to maintain the shutter speed you want/need (assuming you can't add relatively large amounts of extra light to the scene).


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Tim ­ S
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Oct 30, 2011 19:45 |  #11

dave kadolph wrote in post #13329242 (external link)
Have to agree with Jeffrey---HSS and sports do not mix well--the duration is what freezes the action .

Bump up that ISO--and I use a small, simple bounce card to soften the light.

I keep reading posts like this and experimenting on why it won't work. The following was shot using a 50D, 70-200 f/2.8 Sigma and 580EX at 1/800, f/2.8, ISO 2500 using HSS and +1/3 FEC. Flash mounted below the camera. Using sync speed, shooting -2 ambient and + FEC, I still get blurred extremities in cases with fast motion of hands or feet. HSS "seems" to help with this. Thoughts?


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tjketa
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Oct 30, 2011 20:49 |  #12
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jeffreynmandy wrote in post #13327215 (external link)
I kind of figured ISO 400 was unrealistic. Its kind of weird how, to the human eye it seemed nice and bright in there. But to the camera it wasn't. That's why I like the 7d, it seems to handle ISO better than the others I've had. I don't have the budget to justify upgrading any higher as the price jumps a lot when moving up to the 1d and 5d series. You hear all the time, oh its all in the lens. That actually has my wife wanting to downgrade. To a rebel. The lens is very important to an extent, but if the body it's on can't help the lens with low light situations, or times when you need a high fps, you'll just end up with a lot of oof and underexposed shots that look like dookie.

I'd also like to know how's the exposure on these, are they good shots or just ok? I really need to calibrate my monitor. You can be honest, it won't hurt my feelings:)

Depending on what your sports-shooting goals are, here's a couple of threads that might be of help to you:

https://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthre​ad.php?t=135417 , https://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthre​ad.php?t=772074 and https://photography-on-the.net …/showthread.php​?t=1095907

There's quite a bit of knowledge in these, far more than I could try to explain here. Most of the sportsshooters do not use HSS, but there are also other settings to be taken into consideration as well.

Typically depending on the gym, I'm anywhere from ISO 3200 to 6400 and 1/500th second and f/2.8 with pretty good results. On rare ocassions I can use strobes and then I get down as low as ISO 200.

Tom


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JeffreyG
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Oct 30, 2011 21:18 |  #13

Tim S wrote in post #13329992 (external link)
I keep reading posts like this and experimenting on why it won't work. The following was shot using a 50D, 70-200 f/2.8 Sigma and 580EX at 1/800, f/2.8, ISO 2500 using HSS and +1/3 FEC. Flash mounted below the camera. Using sync speed, shooting -2 ambient and + FEC, I still get blurred extremities in cases with fast motion of hands or feet. HSS "seems" to help with this. Thoughts?

At -2 ambient, why bother with HSS? Just set the shutter speed to 1/250 and drop the ISO the same 1 and 2/3 stops. The flash will freeze the action. In fact, I think the blurring you see is ghosting because you have a little bit too much ambient left in the exposure. Get rid of it.

I agree that HSS will not cause blurring, but if you are using the flash to light the scene (i.e. not fill) then you might as well drop the ISO because the flash is freezing the action.


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Oct 30, 2011 21:44 |  #14

JeffreyG wrote in post #13330297 (external link)
At -2 ambient, why bother with HSS? Just set the shutter speed to 1/250 and drop the ISO the same 1 and 2/3 stops. The flash will freeze the action. In fact, I think the blurring you see is ghosting because you have a little bit too much ambient left in the exposure. Get rid of it.

I agree that HSS will not cause blurring, but if you are using the flash to light the scene (i.e. not fill) then you might as well drop the ISO because the flash is freezing the action.

I use -2 ambient when shooting at 1/250th also. I still get blur on extremities or players just out of ideal flash range. I'm using ETTL if that makes a difference. I can't adjust fast enough to use manual flash...:cry: too old, I guess.


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jeffreynmandy
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Oct 30, 2011 23:09 |  #15

I tried some shots a little higher than 2.8 because I was worried about keeping enough of the subject in focus. At that distance does it make much of a difference in 2.8 to 4.0?


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Is there an acceptable zoom for indoor sports/Gyms? Pics included.
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