Old dog learned new tricks - micro adjust

Hope this info may save others some of the aggravation (and near panic) I experienced.

My lenses all seem to be OK - but I was curious to check them using the micro focus adjust.

I used one of the several recommended methods and was quite sure that I did everything right. However neither of the two lenses I tested seemed to be properly focused AFTER making the first run through the micro adjustment process - (they seemed much worse).

I'm not a "pixel peeper" by any means - I only view at 100 (or more) when touching up or creating an effect using PhotoShop... but still, I could tell that something was wrong, and as is the case most of the time I suspected "user error" - nothing at any setting seemed reasonably close. But I didn't know any of this until I was done ....I didn't just go through all the motions with the two lenses, but I did each process twice with both lenses after attaching them to my Canon brand 1.4x extender. (which has always seemed to work fine).

Then I took the camera inside, took out the CF card, stuck it in a card reader and checked the images in DPP .

In real life the images seem to be in very good focus with both those lenses with and without the extender. Really the reason I chose those two lenses is they are the only two lenses I have that I can use the extender on, and I really wanted to see how much "degradation" it caused and so it made sense to start with those two.

But according to the results I got, neither was in focus or even close using increments of 5 steps (-20, -15, -10 and so on up through +20). In fact with the 300 and the extender there was NO difference in IQ between -20 and +20..everything was miserably out of focus.

I had read to use the maximum aperture and I did - but the light was fading so I had to use a high ISO setting (not suggested) and a fairly slow shutter speed (but not that slow) - I used a remote shutter release so I wouldn't shake the camera which was mounted on a very sturdy tripod, but there's always a bit of movement when pressing the shutter button, so that's why I used the remote (not the little infrared Canon remote, but a radio wave remote that plugs into the three pin socket on EOS cameras (not sure about Rebels?)

I called Canon tech support at CPS and after explaining what I did and answering an hour's worth of questions, I was told to send in the lenses and the extender. I hadn't even tried the other lenses in my 'arsenal" so didn't know how many of them were also in need of a factory calibration - which was what I was told I needed..at least for the two lenses I had tried to adjust.

Now I'm thinking this is going to be at least a $300+ calibration of the two lenses and the extender (all of them just past warranty and all gently used).

Today I figured I give it another try - in better light. And at the lowest ISO as is suggested - So I figured I'd at least see some improvement - and I did, but not good enough - better, but still miserably disappointing.

I used DPP to check the images at 100% - and at 200% but nothing looked sharp even at 100%..I only used 200% to see if I could notice any difference between the settings I tried. It was of no help.

I happened to notice that when I used the option for seeing the AF point using DPP that all the boxes were black. Made me wonder.

I called Canon again - this time I didn't bother with the CPS, just regular support because I didn't want to go through another hour of questions and possible disaster scenarios.

And I learned something that made no sense to me, but turned out to be the correct solution. What I did (which was wrong, but I didn't know it and the person at CPS never seemed to figure it out even after asking me exactly what I did step by step for long enough to run my phone battery down) was I manually focused to infinity as suggested before each shot - then I focused (I used the back button focus, but it wouldn't have mattered if I half-pressed the shutter button instead).

The tech I spoke to today figured out my problem right away asking three or four quick questions...She told me that I was too used to having shot manual focus film cameras and expected the focus to hold after I let go of the back button and then used the remote shutter release to click the shutter. She told me that as soon as I let go, the camera would not remain in focus. (which also explained why my focus points were all black and none were red - one should have been - the center point I used - or so I thought).

It didn't make any sense to me - I'd press the AF-ON button, the image would look in focus (not so much at -20 or +20, but certainly at zero and the closer settings like plus and minus 5. In truth it still makes no sense to me - why would I have focus and then lose it? The only explanation was that it's the nature of an all electronic camera - and that is why the focus confirm light goes off when you let go of the back focus button or the half-press of the shutter button (I was in "one shot" mode and no "burst" mode - just one click, one picture, so no servo, etc.) - It would seem that the camera should stay in focus, but she was right.

I then took the camera with the 300 lens and the extender attached - I was too lazy to bother with taking the tripod out again. I never did measure the 50x focal length, but I knew that the 300 worked out to be 49 feet and with the extender it would be 68 feet. I'm pretty at judging 60 feet from pitching baseball through college... and now playing golf, I can judge 20 yards accurately enough - so I took a can of peas, put it where I had three of them earlier (one in front of my target and one behind as recommended) and shot hand-held. Only differences were I used IS since I had no tripod, and I just took one picture - with the micro-adjust set at zero.

I held down the focus button so the focus light stayed on and pressed the shutter button. Took the camera back inside, removed the CF card, checked the image using DPP at 100% and it was PERFECT! Checked it at 200% and again - PERFECT! The print on the can was clear as if I were reading a letter printed on a laser printer in a nice big font and the bar-code was equally clear.

So problem solved - I just had to remember to put each lens (or combo with extender) back on the camera since each was set to the last setting test (+20) and reset them all to zero. (other than the 300 plus extender which I used only at zero on the hand-held shot).

Well, all this may make perfect sense to some and possibly make no sense to old time film shooters used to manual focus lenses - who knew that once you focused a lens, it didn't change until you moved the focusing ring. At least those like me that think in terms of what I was used to (and seemed logical).

Still...something occurred to me. Actually two things. First was my remote shutter release will focus when half pressed - but I guess I was sure enough that the lenses were already focused so I didn't give the half-press a chance (or didn't think about it)- I just hit it fast and assumed the lenses were already in focus. Maybe small fraction of a second of the half press of the remote as I passed through it to click the shutter made things worse since I suppose it's possible that it may have started each lens (or combo with extender) to start to re-focus and made things worse before I gave it enough time to get right.

Well, I guess that's a possibility I can explore if I ever have the inclination (which seems highly doubtful - at least during this lifetime).

But there was another issue that occurred to me that made me curious enough to make one more call to Canon. I have never seen (or at least don't recall ever seeing) anything to imply that using the self timer wouldn't work if someone didn't stay by the camera to hold down the focus button (or half press the shutter). So I couldn't resist making that last call and inquiring about this since the main (not only) purpose of the self timer would be to get the photographer into the picture. But in those cases, what about not having the focus button (rear or half press of shutter) released and losing focus? What good then is the self-timer? Also I've seen using the self timer suggested as a way to be sure the camera is completely steady and not shaken by pressing the shutter button - which I inferred would also mean keeping your hands off the camera.

Canon's answer? Simple...use manual focus - or to make things "easier", use auto focus, and while holding down the shutter button halfway (or the back AF-ON button) get your focus and at the same time turn the switch on your lens from AF to Manual - and yes, it makes perfect sense, but has anyone found any documentation about this? Unable to resist, I looked at my downloaded PDF instruction manual for the 7D. On page 94 (description of how to set self timer) it says to see page 52 about "focus lock" - if you want to take a picture of yourself using the self timer..

OK...so page 52 tells you how to use focus lock. And what it says is to aim at a subject that you want to be in focus, hold down the shutter button half-way (in "green box" mode...no idea what difference the mode would make) and then recompose so what you want in focus, that you already chose by half pressing the shutter button will remain in focus...BUT only as long as you HOLD DOWN THE SHUTTER BUTTON HALF-WAY! This seems like a huge help to "lock focus" when taking a picture of yourself using the self-timer and a tripod....NOT!
LOL

Anyway, I guess there has to be a shorter way to have explained all this, but hopefully this info will be of use to those other "old time manual focus film camera users" that expect a lens that is focused to remain in focus - and not mess up any attempts to adjust micro-focus as happened to me.

Save yourself the agony of seeing that your lenses are horribly out of focus according to the micro adjust system as I did -

Hope this helps even one person. I have read too many posts where people have sent their lenses in for calibration, paid over $100 each and got them back just as they sent them. I was told by Canon that they don't have a "price list" for anything - that I had to send in the lenses and after they looked at them, they'd let me know how much it would cost to fix, and let me tell them to go ahead or not - in which case they'd fix it for their price, or if I declined, they'd just charge me for the return shipping (or keep the lenses?)

From what I've read here on POTN, it would seem there would have been a good chance that this would have cost at least $300. I've read that the minimum to do anything on a lens is $120-$150, so it seems at least possible that it could have cost me as much as $450 to "fix" what wasn't broke. - Or I could have gotten "lucky", been told everything was "in spec" and just paid for the postage both ways and possibly have believed I had two bad lenses and a bad extender....thankfully my pictures seem to be in focus so I wasn't ready to give up and send anything in....and it paid off.

I did get a bit of a "sell" on sending the lenses in due to being a CPS member - which means that my stuff would go to the "front of the line" and get serviced before the non CPS customers - plus I'd get a bit of a discount..on an undefined price.

Peace,
D.

Holy long post, batman.

You have cliffs?

It was a long post, although not sure what you been told by tech makes any sense. For stationary subject and camera once acquired focus should stay no matter whether you hold or release AF-ON button. You can observe distance scale, it doesn't move after you release AF button and press shutter some time later.

Thanks i learned something new. Good post

Andrew_WOT wrote in post #13443709
It was a long post, although not sure what you been told by tech makes any sense. For stationary subject and camera once acquired focus should stay no matter whether you hold or release AF-ON button. You can observe distance scale, it doesn't move after you release AF button and press shutter some time later.

I agree that what I was told seems not to make any sense - but I wasn't told this by one tech, I was told the same exact thing by three different techs - One at CPS and two at the regular support line.

Also the results seem to have proved them to be correct.

And yes, you are right, the distance scale doesn't move. but the focus changes enough to make a significant difference - at least in the case of the one shot I took using their method.

And yes, the post was long and time consuming to write - but I felt that the information was interesting enough to justify sharing the info since it did seem not to make sense, yet proved to be true.

Peace,
D.

Seems logical on one plane and total nonsense on another. I'll try it on my psychotic nifty-fifty and see if it helps.

I'm not sure I tracked all of this. However, I think there is a much simpler answer.

There is a custom function that determines whether AF is triggered by the shutter button. On my 50D, it is C.Fn IV.1. If you set the camera so that only the back button triggers AF (the labels are confusing, but on my 50D, this is choice 3, "AE lock/metering + AF start), then the focus you obtain with the back button will stay fixed when you push the shutter, with the shutter button or any remote release. If you DON'T use this setting, pushing the shutter or a remote release or timer will trigger AF again and change what you had set with the back button.

Delija wrote in post #13444465
And yes, you are right, the distance scale doesn't move. but the focus changes enough to make a significant difference - at least in the case of the one shot I took using their method.

I wonder if it's the lens in particular? Heavier focusing elements slightly shifting?

paddler4 wrote in post #13445293
I'm not sure I tracked all of this.

Assuming that three out of three Canon reps were correct, then my belief that a focused lens would stay focused would be proved wrong. As strongly as I believed that to be true based on both experience and what seemed like common sense, I was informed that my beliefs were in error.

I tried to pass on information that was new to me. In return I got more responses referring to the length of the post than to the content. My mistake was to try to cover all the bases in the interest of accuracy.

Back to your regularly scheduled program of "camera/lens X is better than camera/lens Y".

Have fun - LOL

(EDIT): After reading the following quote from "Andrew WOT" and going through the button assignment menu - very flexible and relatively new to me, I felt it necessary to add the following:

Andrew_WOT wrote in post #13447043
I believe for your case the answer is in paddler4's reply. Did you remove focusing from shutter button?

- as "Andrew WOT" pointed out, you are right about this and I missed it. I wasn't aware that the focusing function could be removed from the shutter button. Easy solution and amazing that none of the Canon tech people thought of this. Maybe it was too obvious, or maybe the opposite since (at least to my knowledge) the previous Canon dSLR cameras I've used did not have this option. The flexibility of assigning functions to the controls of the 7D are vastly greater than those on the two 40D cameras I've owned and the 1D2 I had for a loaner for a few weeks.

Sorry for not realizing sooner that your suggestion was exactly right and would seem to be the easiest and most logical work-around despite going unmentioned by the Canon people.

Peace,
D.

Capeachy wrote in post #13446047
I wonder if it's the lens in particular? Heavier focusing elements slightly shifting?

Sounds possible, but I tried letting go of the focus button on two smaller and lighter lenses and saw no movement of the distance scale. I'd just have to guess that the manual override of the USM lenses just don't act that way - just as the focusing ring doesn't move when in AF mode - I've only had one non USM lens and the focusing ring moved when in AF, but I didn't keep it so I have no way to see if letting go of the focus button (back or half press of shutter) would cause any movement.

PS: I think that the "culprit" was the unaccounted for (by me) half press of the remote shutter release - something I didn't give any thought to when trying to avoid touching the camera. I mounted a smaller lens and focused using the back button. I let it go and nothing moved. But when I pressed the back focus button a second time - even though I did't change my target, I saw that the distance scale took an immediate jump away from the already established focus and since I pressed the remote so quickly I can't help but think that even during that split second as it passed through the "half-press" phase before releasing the shutter it now seems likely that the lens could have been "de-focused" during that very short time - and apparently by design since as I said, the lens was already focused. Seems strange and also doesn't quite match up with what I was told by the tech people (that letting go of the focus button causes a loss of focus).

Whatever the reason, at least it's good to know that to maintain focus (as far as I know)...at least with the 7D, either the back AF-ON button or the half press of the shutter button has to be maintained to get accurate focus (or I guess if using a wireless remote, then the same half press of that).



Peace,
D.

Delija wrote in post #13446196
PS: I think that the "culprit" was the unaccounted for (by me) half press of the remote shutter release - something I didn't give any thought to when trying to avoid touching the camera. I mounted a smaller lens and focused using the back button. I let it go and nothing moved. But when I pressed the back focus button a second time - even though I did't change my target, I saw that the distance scale took an immediate jump away from the already established focus

Ah, yes, it might try to refocus, but should establish focus before allowing the shutter to close, unless you're in AI servo mode. Try this on a tripod:

- Lock the sucker down nice and tight
- Go to one shot AF
- Focus using AF, half press or AF lock button. Let go of the buttons
- Flick the lens to MF
- Take the shot.

The shot should still be in focus.

I've done this for some of my landscape shots, especially in low light, since I didn't want the camera to keep trying to chase focus between shots as I waited for the sun and sky for just the right moment. Of course, if you bump the tripod or the camera, you'll have to do it again.

Delija wrote in post #13446196
Sounds possible, but I tried letting go of the focus button on two smaller and lighter lenses and saw no movement of the distance scale. I'd just have to guess that the manual override of the USM lenses just don't act that way - just as the focusing ring doesn't move when in AF mode - I've only had one non USM lens and the focusing ring moved when in AF, but I didn't keep it so I have no way to see if letting go of the focus button (back or half press of shutter) would cause any movement.

PS: I think that the "culprit" was the unaccounted for (by me) half press of the remote shutter release - something I didn't give any thought to when trying to avoid touching the camera. I mounted a smaller lens and focused using the back button. I let it go and nothing moved. But when I pressed the back focus button a second time - even though I did't change my target, I saw that the distance scale took an immediate jump away from the already established focus and since I pressed the remote so quickly I can't help but think that even during that split second as it passed through the "half-press" phase before releasing the shutter it now seems likely that the lens could have been "de-focused" during that very short time - and apparently by design since as I said, the lens was already focused. Seems strange and also doesn't quite match up with what I was told by the tech people (that letting go of the focus button causes a loss of focus).

Whatever the reason, at least it's good to know that to maintain focus (as far as I know)...at least with the 7D, either the back AF-ON button or the half press of the shutter button has to be maintained to get accurate focus (or I guess if using a wireless remote, then the same half press of that).



Peace,
D.

paddler4 wrote in post #13445293
I'm not sure I tracked all of this. However, I think there is a much simpler answer.

There is a custom function that determines whether AF is triggered by the shutter button. On my 50D, it is C.Fn IV.1. If you set the camera so that only the back button triggers AF (the labels are confusing, but on my 50D, this is choice 3, "AE lock/metering + AF start), then the focus you obtain with the back button will stay fixed when you push the shutter, with the shutter button or any remote release. If you DON'T use this setting, pushing the shutter or a remote release or timer will trigger AF again and change what you had set with the back button.

I believe for your case the answer is in paddler4's reply. Did you remove focusing from shutter button?

Delija wrote in post #13444465
I agree that what I was told seems not to make any sense - but I wasn't told this by one tech, I was told the same exact thing by three different techs - One at CPS and two at the regular support line.

Also the results seem to have proved them to be correct.

And yes, you are right, the distance scale doesn't move. but the focus changes enough to make a significant difference - at least in the case of the one shot I took using their method.

And yes, the post was long and time consuming to write - but I felt that the information was interesting enough to justify sharing the info since it did seem not to make sense, yet proved to be true.

Peace,
D.

Thank you for going to all that trouble.

As a matter of interest I had noticed some inconsistencies in focus when using a tripod...pics that should have been sharp but weren't quite, so I did some tests using ...1. AF in the normal way...one shot, centre point only and 2. using live view and 10x magnification with lens in manual. There was a discrepancy in SOME shots, but I wasn't very scientific about it so assumed it was just me. (The difference was small, I must admit.)

Since then I have used a Lens-align tool and have found that the process works okay...with the lens at infinity to start with, and using a remote release, the lens finds it's focus and shoots all in one action, and seems to give consistent results.

But it's great that you have pointed out the possibility of "non-disclosed" error for us to look out for.

I certainly understand the op's frustrations and I admire your persistance to conquer this delemma. you certainly are more patient than I am.
I have spent many hours trying to figure out the simpelist and correct way to microadjust my lenses ( lots of time on my hands).
I have found that with the lens align tool I was finally able to properly adjust my lenses to my body.
Not to my surprise most of my lenses were pretty close right out of the factory so out of focus shots or bluury shots were usually my fault. Not my equipment.
Also I believe that one of the reasons your focus was not holding was because your lens would constantly hunt for correct focus because there was not enough sharp contrast to lock in focus.(the reason why manual focus is sometines the best way to go.)
The lens align tool has very sharp lines in the ultimate contrast of black and white to lock in focus.
The tool is $80.00 but I think worth the money if having dead on af is important to you.
Saying that,there are +and -tolerences to every camear body and lens so having dead on Autofocus every time is probably impossable at this time.

Great way to waste a day though.

man if letting go of the focus button on the back would change focus then most of sports shooters like me should get only OOF shots. I like so many others use back * button to AF with camera in AI servo mode all the time. You focus and let go the * button and camera doesn't change focus at all.

Haven't tried MA or the newer bodies with AF-ON button.