Are 17mm and 24mm shift lenses too wide for jewelry shots?

I have never owned a tilt shift lens or even used one for that matter. I'm considering either the 17mm or 24mm tilt shift lenses primarily to try some architectural shots. I've been doing some reading on these lenses and it seems they are also useful for jewelry photography. I collect pens so it would be a bonus if I could try use the tilt shift lens for taking photos of my pens.

I'm hoping to get some advice from people who have used one or both of the above lenses.

Update:
I am planning a two week trip to a small town in Italy (Morrone/Campobasso) in March/April of next year. There isn't much technology there, but lots of old architecture so I'm hoping this lens gives me ample opportunity to learn and experiment.

Ive not used either lens so I considered not even replying, but I know how wide 17 and 24mm are and I would have to believe you could get much better results with something longer when shooting pens/jewlery. At 17 or 24mm your working distance would be very short in order to fill the frame and then you'd be looking at issues with distortion.

I'd take a look at the 45 or 90 ts-e's if you're set on using a ts-e (which is definitely the best tool for the job IMO) but your 100mm should give decent good results too.

MNUplander wrote in post #13469134
Ive not used either lens so I considered not even replying, but I know how wide 17 and 24mm are and I would have to believe you could get much better results with something longer when shooting pens/jewlery. At 17 or 24mm your working distance would be very short in order to fill the frame and then you'd be looking at issues with distortion.

I'd take a look at the 45 or 90 ts-e's if you're set on using a ts-e (which is definitely the best tool for the job IMO) but your 100mm should give decent good results too.

Thank you for replying. I'm really glad you did because I think you talked some sense into me and confirmed what I suspected. I was really hoping to get the pen photography for "free" but now I think that 17mm and 24mm are both too short for any kind of macro work. I'm now curious as to what professional jewelry photographers use so maybe I will try research that. The more I do research however, it seems the macro lenses I've purchased are not the best tools.

I am going to spend 2 weeks in a very small town in Italy so that is where I will probably have lots of time to mess around with a TS lens.

SunTsu wrote in post #13469425
Thank you for replying. I'm really glad you did because I think you talked some sense into me and confirmed what I suspected. I was really hoping to get the pen photography for "free" but now I think that 17mm and 24mm are both too short for any kind of macro work. I'm now curious as to what professional jewelry photographers use so maybe I will try research that. The more I do research however, it seems the macro lenses I've purchased are not the best tools.

I am going to spend 2 weeks in a very small town in Italy so that is where I will probably have lots of time to mess around with a TS lens.

Hi SunTsu,

TS-E 24 on APS-C is doable, but for pen shots I normally use the TS-E 90 . I've actually used the TS-E 24 (Mk I) for trying out some stuff, quite a while ago, and found that with an extension tube(!) you can actually get nib shots which have very good DoF, even with the tip almost touching the front lens . Just that lighting becomes a little difficult .

The problem with macro lenses is that you have to position the pens parallel to the sensor in order to get any depth and detail, obviously with the TS-Es you have many more possibilities. Macro lenses are great for detail shots of pens, however.

Here are a few of my first pen shots, taken with TS-E 90 on APS-C:

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90, 90, 90.

WhyFi wrote in post #13469664
90, 90, 90.

No, 90, 90 - it was only two shots .

Kind regards, Wim

wimg wrote in post #13469566
Hi SunTsu,

TS-E 24 on APS-C is doable, but for pen shots I normally use the TS-E 90 . I've actually used the TS-E 24 (Mk I) for trying out some stuff, quite a while ago, and found that with an extension tube(!) you can actually get nib shots which have very good DoF, even with the tip almost touching the front lens . Just that lighting becomes a little difficult .

The problem with macro lenses is that you have to position the pens parallel to the sensor in order to get any depth and detail, obviously with the TS-Es you have many more possibilities. Macro lenses are great for detail shots of pens, however.

Here are a few of my first pen shots, taken with TS-E 90 on APS-C:

TS-E 45 and TS-E 90 are indeed THE lenses to use for pen shots . They also take extenders and extension tubes very well, just in case you need that little extra...

Kind regards, Wim

Thank you very much for sharing. The photos you posted are exactly what I'm looking for. For pen shots, it seems I'm always challenged with lighting and eliminating reflections. I don't suppose you'd like to share the settings you used for the shots, would you (including tilt, shift, exposure)?

Your post along with one from FM (http://www.fredmiranda​.com/forum/topic/79874​8/1 which discusses the difference between 17 and 24) have convinced me to go with the 17mm. Reasons are that neither the 17 nor 24 are good for pen shots so my only consideration is suitability for wide architectural shots. I took my 24-105 and 16-35 out last night and found that 24mm was often, not wide enough (on full frame).

As for the 90mm TS, I'll most likely end up getting that at some point. I took a look on the Canon lens museum and noticed the 90mm was released in 1991. Seeing as how Canon has been updating many of there 20+ year old lenses, I think I'll wait for a new version and at the same time, hope it is an L lens (I'll admit I have a bit of L-snobbery).

Re: Pens. I'm very glad to see pen shots of something other than typical Monthblanc. I used to collect a great deal of Monthblanc until they started making a go at mass popularity in pens, leather goods, etc. It's too bad Richemont seems to have picked up so many fine pen companies. I couldn't figure out what two pens you have photographed, but I like them. Kind of reminds me a bit of Montegrappa. For nib-only shots, do you revert to a macro lens?

SunTsu wrote in post #13478511
Thank you very much for sharing. The photos you posted are exactly what I'm looking for. For pen shots, it seems I'm always challenged with lighting and eliminating reflections. I don't suppose you'd like to share the settings you used for the shots, would you (including tilt, shift, exposure)?

I use a light tent for starters. I have one sized 60 cm X 60 cm X 60 cm (2 ft X 2 ft X 2 ft), but an even bigger one would be better. My next one.. and that will also have two ways of access too, i.e., removable side panel and front panel (rather than just the latter), in order for a more convenient way to set it up, and so I can use it for outdoor shots too.

I have a few pieces of perspex in different colours, shaped in the form of a stand onto which I can put a pen. This is great for reflections of the pen itself, and also elevates the pen in the light tent so I can shoot it at a variety of angles more easily. One thing, though: work as dust free as possible. 5 minutes with anti-static spray and removing dust with a good micro-fiber cloth, on the perspex and the pens, will save you hours in PP .

The light tent eliminates most unwanted reflections of course.

As to light sources: I use up to 5 or 6 flash units, one or two Canon ones (for these shots 580EX and 430EX), and a bunch of cheap (or even free ones), i.e, old ones designed for film, triggered by light sensitive slave cells. The 580EX is positioned in front with diffuser, a bit to the side of the camera (with a flash extension cord), the 430EX (now replaced with 580EXII) is the main fill-in light to the left of the tent, triggered by the 580. The other lights are spread around the tent at varying heights and distances. That's a matter of experimentation as to where these go, further away, closer, higher, lower, all just to lighten the pens up just right.

One thing that is probably apparent especially with the blue D'Inverno (see below), is the light rim around the pen: that was achieved by placing one of the extra flash units behind the light tent, behind the pen. Not only makes this the pens stand out better, but it also eliminates deeper shadows from any other flashes. Again experimentation is required to see what works best.

As to tilt: I lign up the plane of focus with the direction of the pen. It normally only requires a few degrees of tilt. You can either do this in LiveView, or in the VF. The above ones were with the aid of the VF at the time. Shift I use to make sure I don't get any camera reflections in the image, which means I normally shift a few mm left or right. This is another advantage of tilt-shift lenses vs macro lenses.

As to any other equipment: the light tent was placed on an old table which I use for this purpose, and I used a very sturdy (MF) tripod, and two macro rails perpendicular to each other, for final touches to positioning and focusing. Of course MLU and a remote shutter release, wired at the time, RF these days. I use a minimum of 10 seconds between MLU and shutter release BTW, 2 seconds really is too short for residual vibrations.

Metering is not an issue, because I adjust the light output from the flashes to get things right.

Your post along with one from FM (http://www.fredmiranda​.com/forum/topic/79874​8/1 which discusses the difference between 17 and 24) have convinced me to go with the 17mm. Reasons are that neither the 17 nor 24 are good for pen shots so my only consideration is suitability for wide architectural shots. I took my 24-105 and 16-35 out last night and found that 24mm was often, not wide enough (on full frame).

Very true. And at 16 or 17 mm neither the 16-35 or 17-40 are really very crisp in the extreme corners, where I often have something in the frame from a compositional POV.

I reckon you will be pleasantly surprised by the TS-E 17. It is a true world class lens, and a leader in that class. I guess you did check the TS-E 17 sample thread on this site .

Nothing wrong with that .

However, the current TS-E 90 is really very, very good. It is a double gaussian design, with bokeh to die for. And it is very symmetrical - zero distortion, literally.

Those are Stipulas, the Stipula Etruria Majestic is the top one, which is a celluloid (link to photography ) c/c FPH LE (100 made) , the bottom one is also a celluloid pen, piston filling this time, a Stipula Etruria d'Inverno with retractible nib, also an LE (253 pens), but one Etruria S.r.l. (the company) produced for more general availability. Their LEs are real LEs, unlike those from MontBlanc .

BTW, if you want to see more than just Montblanc pics, why not join us at http://www.fountainpen​network.com ? There are several other POTNers members of the forum at FPN .

Whatever I feel like, really. I also like to use TS-Es for nib shots, preferably the TS-E 45, because again it leaves me free to experiment with angles and positioning more. And even at F/5.6, I can get more apparent DoF this way than with a macro lens. The TS-Es take extension tubes very, very well (and extenders too ).

HTH, kind regards, Wim

I wonder how focus stacking software would work with your macro lenses and pens. I see this software used a lot by macro bug shooters. - Should be a lot less expensive that a TS lens.

A light tent and off camera flash is very wise. You can make them and learn how to use inexpensive flashes at this site - http://strobist.blogsp​ot.com …0-macro-photo-studio.html

Necklaces and crowns, no. stud earrings, probably.

also wondered the same thing which lens to shoot diamonds and watches since they are so reflective..any shots of your pens? Which is your fanciest and which mont blanc would you suggest for everyday use? the classic rollerball platinum?

ROGERWILCO357 wrote in post #13486281
also wondered the same thing which lens to shoot diamonds and watches since they are so reflective..

This is why one uses a light tent, and ideally a tilt shift lens. Tilt to place the focus plane exactly where it is needed, and shift to shift the camera out of harm's view to prevent the appearance of camera images in any reflective surfaces.

I am not SunTsu of course, but personally I prefer fountain pens, not rollerballs. Considering his avatar is a picture of a fountain pen nib (pen point) I would think he would recommend a fountain pen as well .

I also recommend fountain pens for everyday use, I always have anywhere between 3 to 20 with me, ideally filled with different colours of ink, different types of pen points, from fine to broad, italic, brush type points, etc.

It is as addicitive as photography, and can also be quite expensive as a hobby . BTW, it is a good diversion from a computer keyboard too, as writing with a fountain pen is a very good remedy against RSI, unlike ballpoint pens, which only make it worse .

As mentioned, do have a look at http://www.fountainpen​network.com. A whole new playing field may open up to you .

Kind regards, Wim

Wim, I have just had a brief browse of "FPN" and I must admit I'm very intrigued. I have always liked fountain pens and regularly use them for note taking at work (and throughout my University studies).

I have a horrible suspicion that a new embryo of a hobby has just been formed which is completely down to you recommending that link

How I'm going to fund two expensive hobbies I dont know but I'm jumping ahead of myself......maybe I should kill it right now.

rusty.jg wrote in post #13499959
Wim, I have just had a brief browse of "FPN" and I must admit I'm very intrigued. I have always liked fountain pens and regularly use them for note taking at work (and throughout my University studies).

I have a horrible suspicion that a new embryo of a hobby has just been formed which is completely down to you recommending that link

How I'm going to fund two expensive hobbies I dont know but I'm jumping ahead of myself......maybe I should kill it right now.

You may possibly have to . I probably have as much invested in fountain pens as in photo gear currently... .

Kind regards, Wim

wimg wrote in post #13478622
I use a light tent for starters. I have one sized 60 cm X 60 cm X 60 cm (2 ft X 2 ft X 2 ft), but an even bigger one would be better. My next one.. and that will also have two ways of access too, i.e., removable side panel and front panel (rather than just the latter), in order for a more convenient way to set it up, and so I can use it for outdoor shots too.

I have a few pieces of perspex in different colours, shaped in the form of a stand onto which I can put a pen. This is great for reflections of the pen itself, and also elevates the pen in the light tent so I can shoot it at a variety of angles more easily. The light tent eliminates most unwanted reflections of course.

...triggered by light sensitive slave cells.

As to tilt: I lign up the plane of focus with the direction of the pen. It normally only requires a few degrees of tilt. You can either do this in LiveView, or in the VF. The above ones were with the aid of the VF at the time. Shift I use to make sure I don't get any camera reflections in the image, which means I normally shift a few mm left or right. This is another advantage of tilt-shift lenses vs macro lenses.

Very true. And at 16 or 17 mm neither the 16-35 or 17-40 are really very crisp in the extreme corners, where I often have something in the frame from a compositional POV.

I reckon you will be pleasantly surprised by the TS-E 17. It is a true world class lens, and a leader in that class. I guess you did check the TS-E 17 sample thread on this site .

However, the current TS-E 90 is really very, very good. It is a double gaussian design, with bokeh to die for. And it is very symmetrical - zero distortion, literally.

Those are Stipulas, the Stipula Etruria Majestic is the top one, which is a celluloid (link to photography ) c/c FPH LE (100 made) , the bottom one is also a celluloid pen, piston filling this time, a Stipula Etruria d'Inverno with retractible nib, also an LE (253 pens), but one Etruria S.r.l. (the company) produced for more general availability. Their LEs are real LEs, unlike those from MontBlanc .

BTW, if you want to see more than just Montblanc pics, why not join us at http://www.fountainpen​network.com ? There are several other POTNers members of the forum at FPN .

Whatever I feel like, really. I also like to use TS-Es for nib shots, preferably the TS-E 45, because again it leaves me free to experiment with angles and positioning more. And even at F/5.6, I can get more apparent DoF this way than with a macro lens. The TS-Es take extension tubes very, very well (and extenders too ).

HTH, kind regards, Wim

Thank you very much. I wasn't expecting such a thorough and detailed response. The next time you take some pen photos, I would really love to see a photo of your set-up.

I'm curious if you do product photography professionally. Your shots really are good. I'm not sure if you've ever visited and/or bought anything from Worldluxe, but it seems they do their own product photography for their website and although not artistic, are very good, IMO. I'd be happy if I could take shots like those.

What kind of light sensitive slave cells do you use?

I ended up ordering the 17mm version and think I'll be happy. I can get a good 3 months of practice in now before heading to Italy.

I'm definitely going to take you up on your invitation to join http://www.fountainpen​network.com. Now that I think of it, I guess I shouldn't be too surprised to find some people with similar cross interests at POTN and the fountain pen site. There is an element of (gear)collecting for some photographers (I'm probably going to get flamed a bit for that comment).

I'm still waiting for a new version of the 90mm. So far, I've upgraded every lens I own that has come out with a new version, so it's likely my personality would dictate that I buy a new 90mm tilt if it were to come out.