Ever Been Burned by a Client?

Staszek wrote in post #13477159
Its spec work, there's not much to it. I'm not charging the director to be there. I charge the parents for prints if they are interested, which they are.

The curse of free. He's not paying you so to him you are of zero value. Obviously you were hoping to make some money from the parents but that doesn't change the fact that to him you are exactly the same as the dad who also isn't charging.

Staszek wrote in post #13476875
I've attempted. The director hasn't responded to any of my communication attempts starting a month ago. The media coordinator who "pushed everything to the director" hasn't contacted me either, yet took the time to e-mail the parents that note.

I'll call him tomorrow to get a straight answer as I like straight answers.

Its not a Client or a job if they won't communicate with you. Are things that desperate in SF?

-Scott

Dan Marchant wrote in post #13478907
The curse of free. He's not paying you so to him you are of zero value. Obviously you were hoping to make some money from the parents but that doesn't change the fact that to him you are exactly the same as the dad who also isn't charging.

If the dad has been given exclusive rights, there is a good chance they actually paid for them. Otherwise, there is no reason for the director to not allow both to shoot on spec. In which case, the difference is the OP is not paying and the other guy is, sometimes you just have to live with the fact that somebody else is prepared to pay more for the exclusive rights, in order that they can make more sales.

Dan Marchant wrote in post #13478907
The curse of free. He's not paying you so to him you are of zero value. Obviously you were hoping to make some money from the parents but that doesn't change the fact that to him you are exactly the same as the dad who also isn't charging.

True and if the dad is a long time customer, they'd go with him out of loyalty. Initially, I had a proposal for them but since I lost contact, I figured I could go and work on spec. My day is free and its the local youth ballet school.

sspellman wrote in post #13479554
Its not a Client or a job if they won't communicate with you. Are things that desperate in SF?

-Scott

No its not that desperate. See above. Free day, local school, high parent interest in my service.

sandpiper wrote in post #13479585
If the dad has been given exclusive rights, there is a good chance they actually paid for them. Otherwise, there is no reason for the director to not allow both to shoot on spec. In which case, the difference is the OP is not paying and the other guy is, sometimes you just have to live with the fact that somebody else is prepared to pay more for the exclusive rights, in order that they can make more sales.

They aren't paying him. The dad shoots the shows for fun - motor driving through the show, then throws the photos on SmugMug, and hands them out for free. This is based on what I've seen from two past performances over the last two years. So technically, he's not doing spec work, he's just shooting for fun.

I am friends with the videographer who shoots the shows every year because his daughter is in the school (which is also why I know several of the parents, school, etc.). He told me the director wants him to pay her for shooting

Staszek wrote in post #13480360
They aren't paying him. The dad shoots the shows for fun - motor driving through the show, throws the photos on SmugMug, and hands them out for free. This is based on what I've seen from two past performances over the last two years.

Sorry, I think you misunderstood my comment. I meant that the Dad was possibly paying for the exclusive rights, not that he was getting paid to do the shoot.

However, as you now say that he gives the images away for nothing, I can't see any reason for him to pay as he would have no way to recoup his money. Equally though, I cannot see why they would grant him exclusivity without him paying for it.

Do you get sufficient sales that you could leverage an exclusivity contract yourself by paying them either a fixed fee, or a percentage of sales? That could swing the deal your way instead, and cut his freebies out of the loop leaving you more potential sales. Even if your shots are better, there are always people who will prefer free to good, so stopping him shooting could more than cover your costs for the exclusivity.

Contracts, Contracts, Contracts. There is a reason for them. If you had a contract then you wouldnt have to make an issue over this. Have your clients sign a contract and make a deposit. Then if they dont follow through with the contract you keep the deposit and sit on your butt all day.

sandpiper wrote in post #13480419
Sorry, I think you misunderstood my comment. I meant that the Dad was possibly paying for the exclusive rights, not that he was getting paid to do the shoot.

However, as you now say that he gives the images away for nothing, I can't see any reason for him to pay as he would have no way to recoup his money. Equally though, I cannot see why they would grant him exclusivity without him paying for it.

Do you get sufficient sales that you could leverage an exclusivity contract yourself by paying them either a fixed fee, or a percentage of sales? That could swing the deal your way instead, and cut his freebies out of the loop leaving you more potential sales. Even if your shots are better, there are always people who will prefer free to good, so stopping him shooting could more than cover your costs for the exclusivity.

I see what you're saying, thanks for clarifying. I thought you meant they paid him.

My proposal had an opportunity for the director to make a portion. However the director nor the media contact has responded to me to give me a chance to share my proposal.

Executive Images Photo wrote in post #13480553
Contracts, Contracts, Contracts. There is a reason for them. If you had a contract then you wouldnt have to make an issue over this. Have your clients sign a contract and make a deposit. Then if they dont follow through with the contract you keep the deposit and sit on your butt all day.

Thanks for your input but have you read the thread at all?

Staszek wrote in post #13480616
Thanks for your input but have you read the thread at all?

Yes I did. Would you like me to cliff note it for you, mr smartass?

If you show up to any place without any contractual backing then you are just asking to be burn. Show me a person who as never lied in their life and ill show you a pink flying unicorn...

Executive Images Photo wrote in post #13480667
Yes I did. Would you like me to cliff note it for you, mr smartass?

If you show up to any place without any contractual backing then you are just asking to be burn. Show me a person who as never lied in their life and ill show you a pink flying unicorn...

What's with the name calling, Matt? Better yet, how are contracts relevant to spec work?

My idea that you did not read the thread is based on:

Executive Images Photo wrote in post #13480553
Contracts, Contracts, Contracts. There is a reason for them. If you had a contract then you wouldnt have to make an issue over this. Have your clients sign a contract and make a deposit. Then if they dont follow through with the contract you keep the deposit and sit on your butt all day.

In case you aren't familiar with spec work here is the definition:

Describes work that is done for a client without a contract or job order, for which the client will pay only if the work is to be used. When a job is done on speculation, the person doing the work takes the risk in the hope of making a profit, gaining a valuable credit, or for some other reason. In the advertising business, creative talent will often work on spec in order to establish a name in the industry.

Read more: http://www.answers.com​/topic/on-spec#ixzz1fJlbv57d

In that sense, your post about contracts and deposits is irrelevant. Now, do you want Cliff Notes or a childish name?

Staszek wrote in post #13480748
What's with the name calling, Matt? Better yet, how are contracts relevant to spec work?

My idea that you did not read the thread is based on:

In case you aren't familiar with spec work here is the definition:

In that sense, your post about contracts and deposits is irrelevant. Now, do you want Cliff Notes or a childish name?

First off, childish name? Please, you were acting like a smartass, so you were called one. Sorry I see it how it is. Ill send flowers if I hurt your feelings <-----Smartass coment.

Second, you said spec work, you're right. I read it, I understood it, I got it. But if you look at your OWN definition...

how can you sit here and talk about getting "burned" when the whole job was based on the HOPE that you would get something out it?

I HOPE I win on this lottery ticket I just bought...but if I dont does that mean I should get mad over it? Moral is you THOUGHT you were going to get something out of this job and didnt. You claim you got "burned" but in reality you just didnt get what you THOUGHT you were going to, thus is why I mentioned CONTRACTS. Contracts keep you from wasting time, effort, and money when you are in business. Plus, contracts are for cool guys like this guy ----->

Oh and they keep people from making threads like this...

There is a point in the above though, if its spec work, competition should be expected.

Having another photographer there doesn't mean a lowblow or broken promise, it means competition, and with your photos, you should of floored the competition.

Executive Images Photo wrote in post #13480860
First off, childish name? Please, you were acting like a smartass, so you were called one. Sorry I see it how it is. Ill send flowers if I hurt your feelings <-----Smartass coment.

Second, you said spec work, you're right. I read it, I understood it, I got it. But if you look at your OWN definition...

how can you sit here and talk about getting "burned" when the whole job was based on the HOPE that you would get something out it?

I HOPE I win on this lottery ticket I just bought...but if I dont does that mean I should get mad over it? Moral is you THOUGHT you were going to get something out of this job and didnt. You claim you got "burned" but in reality you just didnt get what you THOUGHT you were going to, thus is why I mentioned CONTRACTS. Contracts keep you from wasting time, effort, and money when you are in business. Plus, contracts are for cool guys like this guy ----->

Oh and they keep people from making threads like this...

You're right Matt.

Csae wrote in post #13480899
There is a point in the above though, if its spec work, competition should be expected.

Having another photographer there doesn't mean a lowblow or broken promise, it means competition, and with your photos, you should of floored the competition.

Good point. Thanks for the insight.