Live Entertainment: Pricing for "Flying in for a Concert"

Good Luck with this Dwight, I have talked to my frind who I am working on the other big project with and have come up with a proposal document and a seperate contract form. But every client I have talked to or have used them with, he admits this also, has their owns questions and set of ideas on photography, pricing, owning or images, etc.

I spent 30 minutesin a meeting yesterday trying to talk through copyright and pricing of images, they even had my wrriten propsal sitting in front of them. They kept saying, well we are paying for the photography but we do not own the images? They then showed me old slides from about 7 years ago when they had a bunch of work done, and said, the other photographer just gave us all the slides when they were completed,

I then told them, yes I can sell you full usage rights to the images without time restrictions or usage, but the price will be signifcantly higher, and I will still own the copyright.

There is an endless amount of questions and situations, but having a proposal document, and then contract is a good start.


Good Luck

It's just that it's easier to keep track & control if they only have the hi-res images that they paid for. Someone can always pick up the CD at a later date & try to use your work for free.

RSE will output small "Proof" images that you can Zip together, & considering the speed of the inet these days, how long does it really take to email them the few final images they buy?
A "a very tight time bind?" They'd be able to see images right away & already have the printable files well before Monday when FEdEx arrives, too.
Just the way I'd prefer to handle it & that's the way I'd try to sell the idea to them.

Be sure to look through the links that Gavin gave you. LOTs of good info in there!

Thanks, Frank ... as soon as I replied I realized that it is all about CONTROL. I will be much better prepared next time and your specific suggestions are well considered.

Eric, Yes, I can understand that ... I expect that given this experience (which really hasn't happened) that I will establish a baseline from which to work. But I think I will simply say, "This is the professional industry standard regardless of whatever deals you have done before" and if they can't deal with that then "You can always go back to the guy you used before." I think my work is so good that it sets itself apart and if they want a second rate product that is their decision. Again, I recognize that I am very fortunate not to rely on this income in any way ... it all just goes back into equipment and supplies ... I can pick and chose what I want to do.

Dwight, and anybody else who comes across this line from a potential client, they have come to you for a reason. Could it be the other guy is no longer available or maybe he isn't in the business anymore. Maybe he found out how he was so under pricing his work he was going broke and upped his pricing to more "industry standard pricing". They figure they will go fishing again and see if they can find someone who will work that cheap again, happens all the time, and they will find someone.

The way I have dealt with this when it has been launched at me is to begin to gather up my materials, if it is a face to face meeting, and thank them for their time and consideration. "I am sure you can contact the guy who you used before and with whom's pricing you are comfortable with but, my prices are based upon my cost of doing business and my need for a reasonable profit for my wages. I would love to do this job but, obviously I am not within your budget and your offer is one that I can not work with. I know there are a lot of photographers out there who may be able to do the job and give you the results you want for that kind of pricing. Myself, I can't. What I can do is deliver a product that will meet or exceed your expectations. No need to do a reshoot, or look for another photographer on a last minutes notice. Gentlemen, I do thank you and if you should ever need a photographer again, please feel free to contact me for a quote."

An approach like this has happened to me on 3 different occasions. I knew they wanted me because I could do the job and they liked what they had seen in my portfolio. On 2 out of the 3 occasions, I was asked to sit back down. I did and they tried both times to get me to come down in price. I held fast to my guns and didn't budge. Finally on one time I agreed to a 15% discount if, and only if, I was paid upon completion of the project. Not one day later, one week later, or anyother time period. Paid when I deleivered, then and there.
The other finally agreed to my pricing after I explained that they could get someone else and hope that they spent 1/3 of the money I was asking for and got as good as results. Now if the spent that money and what they received wasn't up to par, well then they would have wasted that money. One comeback to that was "we wouldn't pay until we saw what we were getting and were happy." Fine then you have wasted valuable time in messing around with the actual shoot, processing and then your going to have to argue with a guy who wants paid and you don't want to pay.
They eventually did for my price and paid me upon delivery.

The third time, I got up, shook their hands and walked out. They got another guy to do the work and it was adequete. That was it, not great but it would do. I even heard from one of the guys at that meeting who said what they paid for was worth 66% less, they got what they paid for.

If you feel your going to be negotiating price, jack it up maybe 25% more than what you actually want. That way when they negotiate you down, you give them 25% off, they feel like they got the better end of the deal but, you got what you wanted. Best part is, if they accpet your price right off, you have made a bonus on this job.

Jeff, Wow, and you give this advice FREE? Thank you. However, let me put you to the question: what would your actual price be, per day, for an out of area shoot? If it would include processing, expenses or licensing, how much?

As damn much as I could get!!!!

Ok thats not what you wanted to hear so, the nuts and bolts of how I would figure the price.

First I would have to check and see how much a round trip ticket is. Add 10%. Then figure on how much time I would spend getting to and fro. Figure $300 per day travel time. SIDENOTE: If I am not traveling how much could I be making at home? Why should I travel and make nothing or very little when I could stay home and make as much if not more. END OF SIDENOTE:
Out of that $300 I would buy my own meals, drinks, refreshments, magazines etc.
Next how much time would I spend on the location. You have scouting time, set up, actual shooting, breakdown, post processing and uploading/saving to cd. Add all that up and figure a day rate, or half day. ($800 /$450 - 8 hours/more than 2 but less than 4.5)
Now you will probably have to stay somewhere and you will need a car to get back and forth from the airport, or take a cab if the venue is close to your hotel. So you have a hotel expense, plus transportation to add in. Once again add 10%. When you call to book a room, try calling directly to the hotel you will be staying at. Ask about charges by taxi from the airport.


So now lets see, I have ........
1. Half day rate...............$45​0
2. Hotel for 2 nights...........$190 @ $95 per night
3. Cabfare to & fro.............$65 (I called and from the airport rates are about $25 each way, plus tip.)
4. Travel time expense.......$600

Total job cost........$1305 plus flight cost. That is what it will cost to get me there, get a good nights sleep before the shoot, to do the shoot, a good nights sleep after the shoot and back home again the next day.

Now licensing fees would be contingent upon what they will be used for and that is too broad a subject to breach here. However, I would figure the cost as if I did this shoot without the travel and related expense and give 10-25% discount on that rate. Noting in my quote the regular price and discounted pricing.
Also I would require at least a $1000 downpayment before I even booked the flight. Also mention that if they want to book the flight and pay for it directly, you will pick up the transportation fees (cab fare). This will save you form spending money and having that hanging around in the background. So you spend $60 on a cab, your not having to charge $$$ for the flight. Still I would require the downpayment.

Hope that helps

So, you are not very expensive! Perhaps I will subcontract the job to you and just pocket the difference as profit for a finder's fee. Seriously, yes, that helps a lot because it demonstrates that my estimate was reasonable as well as the things I should consider when calculating expenses ... but more than that, the idea of giving discounts on licensing as part of a bigger package has a lot appeal and I never thought about it ... a nice sweetener if a deal looks impending.

Yeah if your getting paid wages to do the shoot, it is kind of cut-throat to expect top fees for licensing, at least in my opinion. Now if your shooting and they aren't paying a day rate, expenses or anything else, you demand top dollar for the licensing.
The way I look at it in a situation such as the one you have proposed here, they are paying a lot of money just to get you there so, a break on licensing is in order. You have to look at it from their side as well, which I always try to do. I want to provide a product that is priced so as to give them good value for their dollar, make me enough that I can call it profitable and everyone is happy.
Getting greedy by trying to get top dollar on day rates, expenses, and licensing fees can leave you standing at the alter like the provebial jilted bride, so to speak.

As far as discounting the licensing fee, that would depend on how many images they used and the actual fee. The higher the number of images, the higher the dollar amount, the larger the discount but, never more than 25%.

I quoted a half day rate, just as an example. If it were me I might quote the full day rate explaining that while I was there that would be considered as down time where I couldn't make money. They will most likely object to paying you for the whole day so you offer the half day rate. This is your negotiating tactics, price higher than you actually want and come down to let them feel like they got the better end of the negoiations.

LOL Well the cost of living isn't as high here in Indy as it is in California.

Good posts, Jeff!
Dwight, FYI I used to charge a day rate that included 10 hours my door to their door back to my door & I threw in 50 free miles, just so I wouldn't have to calculate the small stuff. Half-day rate was 5 hours DTD. Travel time was half the day rate, but they paid the expenses that Jeff includes in his $300.

Consider an "Expendables" category for small stuff like tape, paint, lighting gells, lamps, cleaning equipment, 30X40" cardboard used as reflectors, etc. $25 usually does it over the long run for in the area shoots. If I have to buy it on location rather than ship it, they pay the full cost 'cause I won't be shipping it back. I just leave it with the AD if there is one.

"Also I would require at least a $1000 downpayment before I even booked the flight." Wish I could have got that from GM! Once got the check directly from the GM client in 5 days. Identical job for him a week later took 5 months since his boss made him put it through the accounting dept.

By paying for your own meals you can throw that in as a selling point. If you decide you want a good steak dinner and the bill is about $80, the client may have some objections to paying for an "extravagant meal".
Another way of doing meals and having them pay for it is a per diem, say $40 per day. You should be able to eat breakfast, lunch and dinner for $40 while on the road.

Each post here is a gem in itself ... particularly now that we are throwing in real numbers so folks can get a sense of what we're talking about. And, yes, Cost-of-Living is a big factor. I just moved into a new home which would be $250-300K in INDY but it cost us $870K (my wife and I both have good jobs and are older.) There is simply no way to ignore that and price the same as if I lived in Mississippi. Also, the comment that 25% is the top discount is interesting, although I might want to discuss absolute dollar amounts.

Let's look at that 25% discount with some real numbers. Say the licensing fee was $3000. If you applied the 25% discount that would be $750. The client regains all of your travel pay, plus about 1/3 of your halfday rate. That is a selling point.
If this were a deal where you were there on your own and licensed the same image at $3000 then you would have all of the expenses coming out of it so, in the long run your coming out ahead by giving the discount. Your travel expenses are paid, you get paid for your travel time and hotel room. By the time you deduct all of those expenses, you are way below the money with the 25% discount. Plus the fact that no matter what, you have been paid for the travel, shooting and all hotel and airfare expenses. Most importantly, you won't LOSE any money.

Man I don't know how anyone can afford to live on the left coast. Your absolutley right, if your house cost $870 there, it might be $200-250,000 here.

Check out this thread from SS a while back. Interesting concept and if more guys start doing it, it may become the norm. Of course the quicker the deadline is to the time the job is contracted, the easier it would be to get paid like this.

get paid

That's a great discussion! Thanks for the link.

I can't say that I'm thrilled with that solution, but I think this one is a great idea!

Good one!