Sharpening in LR does nothing

So since I have started using the 5Dii a few months ago (from a 7D) I can't for the life of me see any difference between 20, 30, 50 in Lightroom. I usually keep radius around 1, detail around 5 and masking from 60-80. I am sharpening at 100%.

On the 7D, the picture would become extremely clear compared to no sharpening.

Is this normal/popular experience?

Well the 5d2 is out of the camera sharper than a 7d. Are you viewing at 100%? I could easily tell when sharpening was applied to an image with my 5d2.

It's best to either view the image at 100% or pull the little enlarging preview window in the Details panel until it shows a part of the image with a good amount of detail.

Then, know that your "normal" Lightroom sharpening is for "input" sharpening, which happens on the pixle level. When viewing an image at the "normal" viewing size, "Fit" or "Fill", you may or may not see the effects of "normal" pixel-level sharpening. You can crank up things in the Details panel but it may not look so good viewing at a larger size.

As was said, the 5D2 files are likely sharper out-of-camera than you are used to with the 7D files, do to the ultra-fine resolution of the 7D sensor and the anti-aliasing filter being stronger because of that and the softening effect the AA filter has on the pixel-level sharpness.

And then, there is "creative sharpening" and "output sharpening". With creative sharpening, Lightroom provides the local adjustment brush, which can be set to selectively apply sharpening (and softening) to parts of the image. This can provide some visual impact because you can create a "contrast" between a sharpened subject and a background that has been softened. See these two threads for a couple examples:

https://photography-on-the.net …/showthread.php​?t=1127481

https://photography-on-the.net …/showthread.php​?t=1128385

And then output sharpening is provided in the Lightroom Export and Printing dialogs. When you specify an image size and a "target" (screen, printing) in your Export dialog, ans specify a level of sharpening, LR sharpens as part of the process, taking the image size as well as the target into the calculation. I typically leave my sharpening level to Standard, because I don't like an "overdone" sharpening look. Others may vary.

Also, consider the fact that often when people view an image at a smaller size and "see" it as "soft", what you are really "seeing" is not really "Sharpening", as in fine detail being rendered sharply and crisply, but rather overall "contrast", which is often what we think of as "pop" and gets confused with actual sharpness. Out-of-camera jpegs have not just Sharpening applied but also Contrast and Saturation (along with the in-camera under-the-hood processing). This is why out-of-camera jpegs will appear to have more "pop", at least when viewed in an app like Lightroom. The Canon Raw software Digital Photo Professional (DPP) actually uses the in-camera settings to give a "jpeg-like preview" of your Raw file as a "starting point".

In fact, for anyone thrown off by using Lightroom, I advise installing DPP and using it as a "reference" alongside of Lightroom (or Camera Raw in Photoshop/Elements). You can change and tweak the Picture Styles in DPP to get an idea of what can be done, and then jump into using Lightroom and learn how to "match" the DPP "look"!

jase1125 wrote in post #13581370
Well the 5d2 is out of the camera sharper than a 7d. Are you viewing at 100%? I could easily tell when sharpening was applied to an image with my 5d2.

Yes, that is what I meant when I said I am sharpening at 100%.

tonylong wrote in post #13581616
It's best to either view the image at 100% or pull the little enlarging preview window in the Details panel until it shows a part of the image with a good amount of detail.

Then, know that your "normal" Lightroom sharpening is for "input" sharpening, which happens on the pixle level. When viewing an image at the "normal" viewing size, "Fit" or "Fill", you may or may not see the effects of "normal" pixel-level sharpening. You can crank up things in the Details panel but it may not look so good viewing at a larger size.

As was said, the 5D2 files are likely sharper out-of-camera than you are used to with the 7D files, do to the ultra-fine resolution of the 7D sensor and the anti-aliasing filter being stronger because of that and the softening effect the AA filter has on the pixel-level sharpness.

And then, there is "creative sharpening" and "output sharpening". With creative sharpening, Lightroom provides the local adjustment brush, which can be set to selectively apply sharpening (and softening) to parts of the image. This can provide some visual impact because you can create a "contrast" between a sharpened subject and a background that has been softened. See these two threads for a couple examples:

https://photography-on-the.net …/showthread.php​?t=1127481

https://photography-on-the.net …/showthread.php​?t=1128385

And then output sharpening is provided in the Lightroom Export and Printing dialogs. When you specify an image size and a "target" (screen, printing) in your Export dialog, ans specify a level of sharpening, LR sharpens as part of the process, taking the image size as well as the target into the calculation. I typically leave my sharpening level to Standard, because I don't like an "overdone" sharpening look. Others may vary.

Also, consider the fact that often when people view an image at a smaller size and "see" it as "soft", what you are really "seeing" is not really "Sharpening", as in fine detail being rendered sharply and crisply, but rather overall "contrast", which is often what we think of as "pop" and gets confused with actual sharpness. Out-of-camera jpegs have not just Sharpening applied but also Contrast and Saturation (along with the in-camera under-the-hood processing). This is why out-of-camera jpegs will appear to have more "pop", at least when viewed in an app like Lightroom. The Canon Raw software Digital Photo Professional (DPP) actually uses the in-camera settings to give a "jpeg-like preview" of your Raw file as a "starting point".

In fact, for anyone thrown off by using Lightroom, I advise installing DPP and using it as a "reference" alongside of Lightroom (or Camera Raw in Photoshop/Elements). You can change and tweak the Picture Styles in DPP to get an idea of what can be done, and then jump into using Lightroom and learn how to "match" the DPP "look"!

Tony, thanks for all that. I am strictly talking about the sharpen slider. I can see an obvious difference working with the other sliders. Also, I am only referring to input sharpening, I can also see a difference in output sharpening, if I use cs5 I can tell a difference sharpening, just not the sharpen slider in LR.

I know people really like LR and I found it useful for many things. I never like sharpening in LR but I'm sure it is a user error thing. I think CS5 is superior. That is not why I did not purchase it.

digital paradise wrote in post #13581846
I know people really like LR and I found it useful for many things. I never like sharpening in LR but I'm sure it is a user error thing. I think CS5 is superior. That is not why I did not purchase it.

Well, I really like it also, of course it isn't the same as cs5 but it's very quick to process lots of images at once and organize them at the same time plus, it sharpened the hell out of my 7D files. I just guess the ff files are just sharper than crop, which I know but I guess I am still not used to it.

Well, one way to do a quick comparison. Have a detailed in-focus image at 100% view and apply a health dose of the Amount slider, say 90 or 100, then click the little button on the top left of the Details panel, which will turn off/disable all sharpening and noise redution -- watch the 100% view as you click the button a few times.

I don't do a "heavy" buch of sharpening on my images, just enough to make sure that the fine details have the needed clarity/crispness.

I don't have the 5D2 (or the 7D) but the images I do have seem to respond well...

H.B.,
Here's a comparison screen grab, no sharpening on the right and on the left my usual capture sharpening for detailed images - 50/0.8/50/30:

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Higgs Boson wrote in post #13581295
masking from 60-80.

You may not be sharpening the bits of the image you're looking at. Try holding the 'Alt' key down while moving the sliders.

hollis_f wrote in post #13583862
You may not be sharpening the bits of the image you're looking at. Try holding the 'Alt' key down while moving the sliders.

I def. use the alt key......I wonder if I am using too much masking and not enough detail.......?

Tzalman, I can def see the difference there. I have set my camera to neutral with -4 sharpening and contrast but that should not matter for raw files , right? Just ettr on the LCD?

I don't have a 5dII (I shoot with a 50D), but I do a lot of sharpening in LR.

That is a very low setting for the detail slider. I generally go with the LR default of 25. Try increasing that and see what happens.

80 is a high number for masking. Try not masking at all, which will show you how much sharpening is doing, and then gradually increase the masking as needed. I do this by looking at a boundary between an area that does and does not need sharpening, moving the slider while holding down the alt key to see the mask. I am using a different camera, but I rarely go higher than 50-60, and often lower if I don't have smooth areas to protect.

Re radius: while countless tutorials and books suggest a radius of about 1 for many photos, I find that most of my images with detail sharpen much better in LR with a radius of about 2. Try it and see what you think.

Hope this helps.

To further add weight to the '5DII images are sharper out of camera than the 7D' theory, I've just downloaded a 5D2 RAW file and in Lightroom there isn't a lot of sharpening that is obvious. Crank up the detail to 50 and sharpening to 100 and yes it shows but clearly not good.

I too cannot see that much of a difference.

Look on the bright side, less time post processing!

paddler4 wrote in post #13584201
I don't have a 5dII (I shoot with a 50D), but I do a lot of sharpening in LR.

That is a very low setting for the detail slider. I generally go with the LR default of 25. Try increasing that and see what happens.

80 is a high number for masking. Try not masking at all, which will show you how much sharpening is doing, and then gradually increase the masking as needed. I do this by looking at a boundary between an area that does and does not need sharpening, moving the slider while holding down the alt key to see the mask. I am using a different camera, but I rarely go higher than 50-60, and often lower if I don't have smooth areas to protect.

Re radius: while countless tutorials and books suggest a radius of about 1 for many photos, I find that most of my images with detail sharpen much better in LR with a radius of about 2. Try it and see what you think.

Hope this helps.

Will do, thanks!

cagenuts wrote in post #13584559
To further add weight to the '5DII images are sharper out of camera than the 7D' theory, I've just downloaded a 5D2 RAW file and in Lightroom there isn't a lot of sharpening that is obvious. Crank up the detail to 50 and sharpening to 100 and yes it shows but clearly not good.

I too cannot see that much of a difference.

Look on the bright side, less time post processing!

Glad to see I am not completely out of bounds....

Not to highjack the thread but I sharpened the smaller picture and when I went in and previewed the larger one, oh my heavens!

How to I make sure that I am sharpening the 100% sized copy?