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Thread started 09 Jan 2012 (Monday) 14:11
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5D MKIII vs D800

 
Neilyb
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Apr 20, 2012 09:01 |  #1051

sploo wrote in post #14297724 (external link)
Probably because 5D2 owners were generally criticising the AF and build quality (weather sealing). Hence they improved the things people were asking for. For some 5D2 shooters, the 5D3 is everything they could want (and the higher MP and DR of the D800 isn't an advantage for their work).

Why didn't they build a sensor with more DR for the 5D3? I can only guess it either wasn't considered a priority, or they were unable to get something that worked sufficiently well (there's no downside to having an identical sensor but with more DR, so I can't believe they could've done it but decided to not bother).

Since when did Canon give us what we wanted? :rolleyes: People wanted better AF in a 5D, we got it. People also wanted better noise control (not JPG but the real picture we get from the sensor) and overall IQ by staying with less MPs. Well, they stayed with less MPs at least.


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alt4852
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Apr 20, 2012 09:21 |  #1052

Neilyb wrote in post #14297246 (external link)
The 5DIII is a losing battle. It has lost DR over the mkII and bearly upped the resolution and is 1/4 of a stop better on noise(RAW)....the mkII is 4 YEARS OLD....Nikon are so far ahead it is embarassing. Now when we talk at work (with a Nikon shooter) I simply tell him I am selling my gear and going Nikon because at the end of the day it is about IQ not touch sensitive scroll wheels and crap like that. Did I mention the double price for a mkIII over a mkII? Ouch.

i think it's somewhat amusing the sheer amount of hyperbole that gets thrown around here. people like speaking words of wisdom about putting an emphasis on the artistic merits and development of our craft, yet turn around every 3-4 years and run through the streets decrying the fall of this brand or that because of insignificant little differences between model lines.

in the case of the 5D3 and D800, we've reached an age where IQ will be phenomenal with either body and good glass.. however, you're still seeing people declare that the sky is falling, that canon is doomed, they should be embarrassed, that amazon sales charts illustrate how canon will be bankrupt soon because of this.

once again, i'd like to challenge any of the doomsayers to be honest with themselves. can you really reliably discern which bodies created which images when you create your digital albums and prints for your clients? better yet, if it's so hard for us as nitpicky photographers to tell, how many of your clients will?

i bring all of this up because i'm still not sold on the 5D3 although i'm really considering it. four years ago, i remember telling people "if my 5D2 had a decent autofocus system, it'd be near-perfect." now with better weather resistance, 100% VF, dual card slots, faster frame rate, and an effective silent shutter mode, i'm at a loss to find major faults in it. however, it seems like to many people it's unfit as a photographic tool.

as i mention relatively frequently, i shoot very often with a partner that uses nikon equipment (D4/D700) and aside from stylistic differences in the way we see things, our clients receive one product. they receive all of our photos together in one package, and even our most discerning clients cannot tell who took what photo. i feel as though when we do eventually upgrade our cameras, the same will hold true. nobody will be able to tell the difference at the end of the day. you say that IQ is the ultimate goal, i disagree. i think the photo is the ultimate goal.

having handled both systems extensively, i believe it really is down to personal preference. back when I used 40D's and he used D200's, my equipment clearly had an edge technologically speaking. however, he stuck with his cameras because he was comfortable with nikon's handling and he created a lot of amazing work with it. fast forward to today, and i can acknowledge that on paper, the D800 seems to have the edge. however, i don't understand the calls for a mass exodus or extreme hyperbole. i'm still going to be a more effective photographer with a canon camera in my hand, because the control scheme and general feel is second nature to me now. i don't have to think when i shoot with my cameras, i just.. do.

if you want to switch your whole system every 3-4 years whenever a brand will inevitably gain an advantage, by all means do so. however, be honest about it. you're satisfying that part of you that wants the very best technology has to offer at any given time. it has little to do with photos, and much more to do with image quality. these two things are not synonymous.


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Maverique
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Apr 20, 2012 09:27 |  #1053

LOL look at that, he's using proper arguments and logic, how adorable.

that was sarcastic, by the way ;)


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watt100
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Apr 20, 2012 09:33 |  #1054

sploo wrote in post #14297799 (external link)
For landscape guys: yes. For many other shooters: high fps, good AF, weather sealing, good high ISO performance etc. probably all come before those.

BTW Happened to check your Gear link. With regard to this pic (http://www.flickr.com …kephotography/6​876051878/ (external link))... just remind me where you live? I... errr.... need to break into your house ;)

makes you wonder why someone with $50,000 of Nikon camera gear spends all their time on a Canon forum!




  
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ching
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Apr 20, 2012 09:37 |  #1055

watt100 wrote in post #14298104 (external link)
makes you wonder why someone with $50,000 of Nikon camera gear spends all their time on a Canon forum!

They used to be Canon? :lol:


Nikon D800

  
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watt100
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Apr 20, 2012 09:40 |  #1056

ching wrote in post #14298118 (external link)
They used to be Canon? :lol:

yep, desperate to get back to where all the action is.
Or maybe they're a photog without a port because they spend so much time on Canon forums




  
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dgrPhotos
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Apr 20, 2012 10:06 |  #1057

sploo wrote in post #14297799 (external link)
BTW Happened to check your Gear link. With regard to this pic (http://www.flickr.com …kephotography/6​876051878/ (external link))... just remind me where you live? I... errr.... need to break into your house ;)

:lol: I'm across the pond.




  
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alt4852
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Apr 20, 2012 10:21 |  #1058

Maverique wrote in post #14298082 (external link)
LOL look at that, he's using proper arguments and logic, how adorable.

that was sarcastic, by the way ;)

sorry, i just poke my head in this thread every so often and i'm constantly confused by how polarized it gets. :p

i only recognize the whole chasing image quality feeling because i'm often guilty of it myself. i'd be hard-pressed to see the difference in prints between the 85mm f/1.8 and my 85L most of the time, but that doesn't change the fact that i opted for the L. part of me just wanted the best, and it had nothing to do with the quality of my work.

my main gripes with nikon when i first decided on a system was their poor low-light performance (old CCD's) and the lack of high quality fast primes. in the last few years, they've remedied both issues. aside from the trance-like way my 50L draws an image, and how much i love my 135L, canon doesn't have a whole lot that nikon lacks. however, i realized that i would create high-quality work either way and i'm just more used to canon. i don't feel like selling all of my cameras, lenses, flashes, triggers, filters, etc just to gain a near-imperceptible advantage in DR and MP in my prints.

as i said before, i can understand wanting to make a switch if people think all that buying/selling is worth it.. it's a personal decision. however, it's the hyperbole that these decisions generate that bothers me. non-photographers would recommend psychiatric help for us if they realized how galvanized these minor differences made us. the law of diminishing returns has made us monsters since we've acclimated to the conditions at the top and are desperate to find variation. :p


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sploo
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Apr 20, 2012 10:26 |  #1059

Neilyb wrote in post #14297947 (external link)
Since when did Canon give us what we wanted? :rolleyes:

Well...

Neilyb wrote in post #14297947 (external link)
People wanted better AF in a 5D, we got it. People also wanted better noise control (not JPG but the real picture we get from the sensor) and overall IQ by staying with less MPs. Well, they stayed with less MPs at least.

...so they gave us better AF and roughly the same MP. That's two outta three ;)

Being serious for a moment though - looking at your style of shooting (wildlife) I would've thought that the 5D3 was an ideal improvement - much better AF, slightly higher fps, better weather sealing, and for when the light's really bad, slightly better high ISO performance.

I don't deny that a D800 would give you more cropping potential, and the extra DR is always nice - though that extra DR is only significant under ISO 1600.

alt4852 wrote in post #14298052 (external link)
...you say that IQ is the ultimate goal, i disagree. i think the photo is the ultimate goal...

Yep. Fair point. I guess the argument comes when you can honestly claim that (some part of) the technology limits the photo. For me, it comes with nasty banding noise on pushed shadows on a 7D. But I'm under no illusions that a more artistically talented photographer would get better (artistic) pics than me using a point and shoot.

dgrPhotos wrote in post #14298269 (external link)
:lol: I'm across the pond.

Dammit man! How inconsiderate :D


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Neilyb
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Apr 20, 2012 10:28 |  #1060

alt4852 wrote in post #14298052 (external link)
i think it's somewhat amusing the sheer amount of hyperbole that gets thrown around here. people like speaking words of wisdom about putting an emphasis on the artistic merits and development of our craft, yet turn around every 3-4 years and run through the streets decrying the fall of this brand or that because of insignificant little differences between model lines.

in the case of the 5D3 and D800, we've reached an age where IQ will be phenomenal with either body and good glass.. however, you're still seeing people declare that the sky is falling, that canon is doomed, they should be embarrassed, that amazon sales charts illustrate how canon will be bankrupt soon because of this.

once again, i'd like to challenge any of the doomsayers to be honest with themselves. can you really reliably discern which bodies created which images when you create your digital albums and prints for your clients? better yet, if it's so hard for us as nitpicky photographers to tell, how many of your clients will?

i bring all of this up because i'm still not sold on the 5D3 although i'm really considering it. four years ago, i remember telling people "if my 5D2 had a decent autofocus system, it'd be near-perfect." now with better weather resistance, 100% VF, dual card slots, faster frame rate, and an effective silent shutter mode, i'm at a loss to find major faults in it. however, it seems like to many people it's unfit as a photographic tool.

as i mention relatively frequently, i shoot very often with a partner that uses nikon equipment (D4/D700) and aside from stylistic differences in the way we see things, our clients receive one product. they receive all of our photos together in one package, and even our most discerning clients cannot tell who took what photo. i feel as though when we do eventually upgrade our cameras, the same will hold true. nobody will be able to tell the difference at the end of the day. you say that IQ is the ultimate goal, i disagree. i think the photo is the ultimate goal.

having handled both systems extensively, i believe it really is down to personal preference. back when I used 40D's and he used D200's, my equipment clearly had an edge technologically speaking. however, he stuck with his cameras because he was comfortable with nikon's handling and he created a lot of amazing work with it. fast forward to today, and i can acknowledge that on paper, the D800 seems to have the edge. however, i don't understand the calls for a mass exodus or extreme hyperbole. i'm still going to be a more effective photographer with a canon camera in my hand, because the control scheme and general feel is second nature to me now. i don't have to think when i shoot with my cameras, i just.. do.

if you want to switch your whole system every 3-4 years whenever a brand will inevitably gain an advantage, by all means do so. however, be honest about it. you're satisfying that part of you that wants the very best technology has to offer at any given time. it has little to do with photos, and much more to do with image quality. these two things are not synonymous.

Be honest, how many people want a noisey photo or blown out whites. Yes I am on the whole happy with Canon, it is second nature...blh blah. But having to take shots at ISO800 and 1/25 sec at 700mm because you cannot go higher without either having a noisey or a watery image is annoying. Having those black splodges they call shadows on my 5DmkII shots is also annoying, so you think "Maybe those black noisey nasty shadows will imporve with the next camera?" Not to be it seems. I cannot overexpose to the right because my DR is not up to it at ISO3200 (I shoot nature not controled lighting situations) for pulling back. I cannot underexpose effectively if it is bright due to those shadows (no I do not underexpose by 5 stops and expect clean noise but being able to be flexible would be nice).

Canon are losing the sensor/IQ war at the moment and given that the 5D is on a near 4 year cycle does that mean I have to wait for maybe something better nexttime (like we did this time)?

I really do not wish to swap systems every 3/4 years, in fact have used Canon for 6 or 7.


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alt4852
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Apr 20, 2012 11:16 |  #1061

Neilyb wrote in post #14298369 (external link)
Be honest, how many people want a noisey photo or blown out whites. Yes I am on the whole happy with Canon, it is second nature...blh blah. But having to take shots at ISO800 and 1/25 sec at 700mm because you cannot go higher without either having a noisey or a watery image is annoying. Having those black splodges they call shadows on my 5DmkII shots is also annoying, so you think "Maybe those black noisey nasty shadows will imporve with the next camera?" Not to be it seems. I cannot overexpose to the right because my DR is not up to it at ISO3200 (I shoot nature not controled lighting situations) for pulling back. I cannot underexpose effectively if it is bright due to those shadows (no I do not underexpose by 5 stops and expect clean noise but being able to be flexible would be nice).

Canon are losing the sensor/IQ war at the moment and given that the 5D is on a near 4 year cycle does that mean I have to wait for maybe something better nexttime (like we did this time)?

I really do not wish to swap systems every 3/4 years, in fact have used Canon for 6 or 7.

this is the sort of thing i'm talking about though. you pose the question about DR as if it's a choice; as if people are choosing between the noisy, limited DR option of the 5D3 or the clean wide-DR option of the D800.

the reality of the matter is far less polarized. of course people want to limit the negative characteristics, but the D800 is simply not leaps and bounds ahead as you are illustrating. it has an advantage, yes, but by saying that your current ISO800+ images are "noisy and watery", you're implying that the D700/D800 is not. my point in referencing my friend is that the D200's high-ISO performance compared to the 40D's was a much more drastic difference than what we're seeing with the 5D3 and D800. we're at a point where the differences that we see are more nitpicky than substantive.

my work primarily centers around events/weddings where DR is extremely important. if i could have more of it, i wouldn't refuse. but you look at the comparisons between our two competing bodies on the market today and objectively.. it's quickly evident that they're more similar than they are different. you look at the world's most sought-after photographers.. ones who have clients fighting for bookings to pay them $20,000 to shoot their wedding. these are the clients that ultimate image quality should matter the most for. yet.. in terms of brand usage, it's a complete wash. the top 20 are full of people who use nikon, canon, hasselblad, leica, sony, etc. i haven't looked it up before, but i suspect landscape photographers are the same. i'm not saying we should all mimic the industry leaders, but i think it's rather telling if they're able to create world-class images with equipment that you think has "dark splodges" for shadows. we're in an age where more often than not, our photos are more limited by our skills than technological limitations. this doesn't mean that progress isn't good, in fact, it's great. however, i think you're exaggerating the severity of the issue.

that ISO3200 shot that you hypothetically mentioned, do you really think deep down that using the D800 instead would have garnered a significantly better photo? if you think it would, then switch systems for it. however, i think the more you objectively think about it, the more you'll probably realize that it's more like 10% technological advantage, and 90% psychological boost. when taken by the same photographer and edited, i couldn't reliably tell the difference between photos taken between a D200 or a 40D, a 5D2 and a D700, and i have no doubt that i'll have the same difficulty between a 5D3 and D800.

PS: the grass is always greener. i'm admittedly thinking about the DR and MP advantage of the D800 as i'm on the fence about dropping $7000 on a pair of 5D3's to replace my current bodies. my partner is reluctant to buy a D800 because he'll be stuck with 50mb+ RAW files and for high-volume wedding photography, the resolution is unnecessary and he feels like he'll be paying for more/bigger CF cards and hard drives for no reason. for ceremonies though, he is jealous of the 5D3's silent shutter though. ;)


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Maverique
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Apr 20, 2012 11:27 |  #1062

Jesus tap-dancing Christ, you make it sound like the 5D3 is a cellphone, for god's sakes. Moderation much?


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alt4852
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Apr 20, 2012 11:36 |  #1063

Maverique wrote in post #14298680 (external link)
Jesus tap-dancing Christ, you make it sound like the 5D3 is a cellphone, for god's sakes. Moderation much?

sorry, i don't follow? :oops:


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watt100
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Apr 20, 2012 11:42 |  #1064

alt4852 wrote in post #14298334 (external link)
sorry, i just poke my head in this thread every so often and i'm constantly confused by how polarized it gets. :p

my main gripes with nikon when i first decided on a system was their poor low-light performance (old CCD's) and the lack of high quality fast primes. in the last few years, they've remedied both issues. aside from the trance-like way my 50L draws an image, and how much i love my 135L, canon doesn't have a whole lot that nikon lacks. however, i realized that i would create high-quality work either way and i'm just more used to canon. i don't feel like selling all of my cameras, lenses, flashes, triggers, filters, etc just to gain a near-imperceptible advantage in DR and MP in my prints.

as i said before, i can understand wanting to make a switch if people think all that buying/selling is worth it.. it's a personal decision. however, it's the hyperbole that these decisions generate that bothers me. non-photographers would recommend psychiatric help for us if they realized how galvanized these minor differences made us. the law of diminishing returns has made us monsters since we've acclimated to the conditions at the top and are desperate to find variation. :p

and 99% of the six billion people on the planet think a cell phone camera is great!




  
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Apr 20, 2012 11:47 |  #1065

Is it possible to mount Canon lenses on a D800?


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