It just shows there is nothing wrong except for aggressive sharpening wind pig. I purposely avoided Luminance NR just to see.
digitalparadise Awaiting the title ferry...  More info | Jan 17, 2012 19:08 | #31 It just shows there is nothing wrong except for aggressive sharpening wind pig. I purposely avoided Luminance NR just to see. Image Editing OK
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digitalparadise Awaiting the title ferry... More info | Jan 17, 2012 19:11 | #32 AbPho wrote in post #13721968  Without the mask the noise is very visible at this crop. Thanks for the link to the Really Smart Sharpening article. Here is a tutorial I made about it. Image Editing OK
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Jan 17, 2012 19:16 | #33 digital paradise wrote in post #13722147 Here is a tutorial I made about it. I love sharpening tutorials. I will save a copy for offline referral. Thanks. I'm in Canada. Isn't that weird!
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windpig Chopped liver  More info | Jan 17, 2012 19:18 | #34 digital paradise wrote in post #13722127 It just shows there is nothing wrong except for aggressive sharpening wind pig. I purposely avoided Luminance NR just to see. I'm with you. I'm really picky when and how I use luminance NR. Although I didn't take the time with this image, I usually do any aggressive NR in PS using a mask. Would you like to buy a vowel?
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tonylong ...winded  More info | Jan 17, 2012 20:14 | #35 OK, I see something but I'm not sure what it is, it doesn't look your "regular" digital noise, although if you have Color Noise Reduction turned competely off strange things can show up!   So, notes: First they both look very nearly the same, so I'd say that whatever is "there" is in the image, not from "processing". Second, the 100% view really doesn't look that bad! Third, take note of the background: if the problem is "normal" digital noise, it will show up in the background, and to me it has a bit of "color noise" but that's not really unusual. Luminance noise doesn't seem to be a problem in the background... Well, I decided to do some "serious pixel peeping", and blow up the shot to 200%. I never do this to my own shots, but I decided "what the hey"! DPP:  LR:  Now these are more interesting! For one thing, DPP is actually using the Standard Picture Style, which I neglected to set to Neutral, and so it has applied some "under the hood" sharpening, whereas the LR sharpening is still off! And then, look at here face, it looks crusty in the DPP clip! But then, look at the background, it doesn't! Why? Hmm, I don't know -- is it possible she has some of a recent meal smeared on her face?? Well, moving along, I then set the DPP Luminance and Chrominance to 2:  It did a nice job of cleaning the face, to me... I then set the Lightroom Luminance NR to a similar level (20) and left the Chrominance NR at the default of 25, and set the Sharpening to a zero:  So, with DPP, that's about as good as it's gonna get. With Lightroom, though, the sharpening was at zero, so I decided to play with a bit of sharpening and Masking, and to add 5 points to the Luminance NR to set it to 25:  Well, considering that those are 200% views, I don't think they came out "ugly". The only question I would have is the "crusty" look...I don't know. But, hey, it was something to play with! Hope someone got some info or at least was entertained! Tony
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tonylong ...winded More info | Jan 17, 2012 20:30 | #36 Added note: I just went back to DPP and turned the Sharpening from the 3 it had been set at from using the Standard Picture Style to 0 (like I would get from my Neutral PS setting) and guess what? The crustiness went away!:  So, a takaway from this? Well, there is a reason why Canon cameras have a Portrait Picture Style, it has a Sharpness setting of 2 rather than 3, so it is "kinder and gentler" than Standard. Also, a bit of Noise Reduction can help, even with low ISOs! It didn't take much, just a touch, to clean up that "crusty" look, whatever it was in both DPP and Lightroom. Anyway, I think I really am done! Tony
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Jan 17, 2012 20:59 | #37 Lots to pour over here. Thanks for all the responses. I'll read through everything a couple more times, but my first observations are these.
_MG_2288.jpg by Dingbat Shutterbug, on FlickrSecondly, thanks to Tony for the detailed analysis of the RAW file itself, that was really what I was looking for. I'm beginning to wonder if the folks who have been appalled at the grainyness or noisiness of the photo have become used to 5Ds and 40Ds, and unused to lower-end cameras. And yes, her face was a little crusty. Her skin has always been sensitive, and the dry cold air wreaks havoc on it. On a better head shot from that day (below), I took the time to do some skin softening, to smooth away some of the "crusty" look. I really appreciate the analysis.
_MG_2263.jpg by Dingbat Shutterbug, on FlickrLastly, this one has got to be the best unintentional comedy I've seen in a while: I know that's not what you intended, but I'm still laughing about it. Good stuff.
_MG_2315.jpg by Dingbat Shutterbug, on Flickr
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tonylong ...winded More info | Jan 17, 2012 21:18 | #38 Well, Dingbat, I'm glad you are getting some help in all this! Tony
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windpig Chopped liver More info | Jan 17, 2012 21:33 | #39 Dingbat Shutterbug wrote in post #13722759 I know that's not what you intended, but I'm still laughing about it. Good stuff. Do you realize how hard it is to stick my proverbial foot in my mouth with my boots still on? Would you like to buy a vowel?
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digitalparadise Awaiting the title ferry... More info | Jan 17, 2012 22:15 | #40 tonylong wrote in post #13722869 Well, Dingbat, I'm glad you are getting some help in all this! And boy, what a relief to know that her skin actually was "crusty" -- first of all I didn't want to say anything offensive about her, I just didn't know what the heck we were looking at! And then, it seems like even LR's low Default Sharpening level may bring out some unwanted "detail", like "crustyness" on a little girl's face, and that was also clear looking at the face with DPP's Standard Picture Style. Lastly, you may have noticed that the DPP shots had a bit of a boost in the colors. This is because the Standard Picture Style applies a bit of Saturation (as well as Contrast) -- it doesn't show up in the Raw controls like the Sharpness does -- it's "under the hood". Lightroom has the Calibration tool where you can apply a similar "style" but they are more subtle than the DPP Picture Styles. But it's still there to play with. Many people who get started shooting Raw and jump into Lightroom or Photoshop (Camera Raw) get thrown off by the differences between the Adobe Raw processors and DPP. But when you set DPP to the Neutral Picture Style, all of a sudden they both look quite similar! Playing a bit with DPP and then applying insights in your work in Lightroom can pay off! No text. Image Editing OK
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digitalparadise Awaiting the title ferry... More info | Jan 17, 2012 22:16 | #41 Dingbat Shutterbug wrote in post #13722759 Lots to pour over here. Thanks for all the responses. I'll read through everything a couple more times, but my first observations are these. Firstly, thanks to digital paradise for the tips and link on sharpening. I have PS and LR, but have been primarily using LR. I haven't made my way through Kelby's book on PS yet, and I find LR a lot more intuitive. But I'll get there. But as a result, I've only been using LR's sharpening. I've read a bit about USM and High-Pass and other sharpening methods, but yours was a very clear description, and I love seeing the results on one of my own images. I can see how "noisy" images can benefit from other sharpening techniques. I'll try my hand at this one, which I think is a better captured moment, but obviously suffers from focus problems, and had to be cropped quite a bit.
_MG_2288.jpg by Dingbat Shutterbug, on FlickrSecondly, thanks to Tony for the detailed analysis of the RAW file itself, that was really what I was looking for. I'm beginning to wonder if the folks who have been appalled at the grainyness or noisiness of the photo have become used to 5Ds and 40Ds, and unused to lower-end cameras. And yes, her face was a little crusty. Her skin has always been sensitive, and the dry cold air wreaks havoc on it. On a better head shot from that day (below), I took the time to do some skin softening, to smooth away some of the "crusty" look. I really appreciate the analysis.
_MG_2263.jpg by Dingbat Shutterbug, on FlickrLastly, this one has got to be the best unintentional comedy I've seen in a while: I know that's not what you intended, but I'm still laughing about it. Good stuff.
_MG_2315.jpg by Dingbat Shutterbug, on FlickrThat second image is very clean blown up. They all are. At least now you know your camera is OK. Image Editing OK
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Jan 17, 2012 22:18 | #42 digital paradise wrote in post #13722127 It just shows there is nothing wrong except for aggressive sharpening wind pig. Do you realize how long it took me to figure out what you meant by "wind pig"? I thought it was some reference to some stupid sharpening technique. Google did not help. Now I know....it's a fellow POTN member. I'm in Canada. Isn't that weird!
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digitalparadise Awaiting the title ferry... More info | Jan 17, 2012 22:21 | #43 AbPho wrote in post #13723223 Do you realize how long it took me to figure out what you meant by "wind pig"? I thought it was some reference to some stupid sharpening technique. Google did not help. Now I know....it's a fellow POTN member. 
Image Editing OK
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Attomsk Member  152 posts Joined Dec 2011 More info | Jan 18, 2012 10:51 | #44 I notice a lot of excessive noise on LR4 Beta even at ISO 200 - i'll check to see what sharpening is doing to my images in that beta ... I haven't actually played with the sharpening much yet. My flickr
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