Sorry, another "which flash should I get" question

Apologies in advance, I know this question gets asked several times a day, but here's my situation:

I have a Rebel 500d/T1i with a 430EXII, extra long ETTL cord and softbox. I'd like to get another flash primarily for outdoor use on a light stand. I couldn't live without ETTL for run and gun stuff, but I've got the 430EX II for that and would probably be okay with manual flash as a second flash.

I almost pulled the trigger on a Lumopro LP160, but then I started doing more research and saw there's the Yongnuo 565 for the same price and does ETTL. My main concern there is quality, as I'd rather pay more for something that will last and be there when I need it.

I think eventually I would like to move to radio triggers, but for now can get by with my ETTL cord and use the main flash (430EX II) to trigger the optical slave of whatever else I get.

So basically what I think I'm looking for is:
- ETTL preferred but not a must
- Built in optical slave would be great since I don't have any other triggers at the moment
- High speed sync would be nice but not a must
- Don't know what my power needs are, but it'll be outdoors mostly probably for fill light

So what do you all think, is there a non-Canon flash that meets my needs or would I just be better off getting another 430EX II or 580EX II?

yn 565!

One thing to keep in mind is optical triggers do not work as well outdoors as they do indoors. I use the optical triggers indoors on the LP-160, but I always use radio triggers outdoors.

mikeca42 wrote in post #13750484
One thing to keep in mind is optical triggers do not work as well outdoors as they do indoors. I use the optical triggers indoors on the LP-160, but I always use radio triggers outdoors.

Ah, I forgot about that! Okay so eventually radio triggers for outdoors. Which leads me to my next question: should I care about the quad trigger capabilities of the Lumopro 160? I see that flash gets touted a lot because of it, but when would one actually use the PC or mini plugs? Is that for radio triggers or something else? Or put it this way, if I have an ETTL cord, in what situations would I use the PC/mini plug options? Thanks for your help!

j-mar wrote in post #13751501
Ah, I forgot about that! Okay so eventually radio triggers for outdoors. Which leads me to my next question: should I care about the quad trigger capabilities of the Lumopro 160? I see that flash gets touted a lot because of it, but when would one actually use the PC or mini plugs? Is that for radio triggers or something else? Or put it this way, if I have an ETTL cord, in what situations would I use the PC/mini plug options? Thanks for your help!

The PC or mini plug could be used with radio triggers. It depends on what kind of trigger you get. Many of the inexpensive radio triggers now include a hot shoe, so you would not need these ports with that kind of trigger. The PocketWizzard(PW) plus II trigger, which is used by many professional photographers, needs either the PC or mini plug sync port, depending on which cable you have. I believe the Paul Bluff CyberSync recievers also use the PC or mini plug ports on a flash like this.

If you have a long E-TTL cord, you can only connect it to one flash that supports E-TTL. If you have all Cannon flashes, and you have at least one flash that can act as a wireless master in the Canon system (580EX II, 580EX or 550EX), you can use the Canon wireless system to fire all the other flashes. The flash power can be set by E-TTL or manually. If you have a camera that supports remote flash setup from the camera menus, you can do that too. I'm not sure, but I doubt your camera supports wireless flash setup from the camera menus. It is much easier on the camera menus than it is using the menus on the back of a 580EX II.

The Canon wireless system is optical. The master sends out a bunch of pre-flashes to tell the slaves what to do. This works well indoors even when you don't have a direct line of sight. The pre-flashes can bounce off ceilings and walls to get to the slaves. Outdoors, you have to be more careful about the setup. You need a direct line of sight from the master to the slaves. Frequently this means you have to be careful how you orient the sensor. You also need to keep direct sunlight off the sensor. I generally do not use the Canon wireless system outdoors. I use radio triggers.

The optical triggers on the LP-160 will not work if you are using the Canon wireless system. They get fooled by all the pre-flashes the master uses to order the slaves and fires the flash too early or not at all.

Outstanding info, thank you!

So it sounds like if I want ETTL and I want to remotely control all of my flash units via radio trigger someday, there's no cheap way around it, need to go with one of the expensive radio triggers that supports ETTL and compatible flash units. Correct? I was already planning to get a 5D II at some point this year, which I'm assuming has all the wireless remote controls built in, unlike my T1i.

Okay, last question, I promise... From a practical standpoint, not speaking about wedding or professional photography as I'm sure ETTL is necessary, but just for enthusiasts, do most people use ETTL when they're using multiple flash units, or do you switch to manual anyway?

Oh, and maybe I don't understand the full situation, but from the product description of the Lumopro 160, it does indeed have a "digital" optical slave setting which ignores the first ETTL pre-flash. But I'm still learning about all this so maybe there are multiple pre-flashes involved in Canon wireless system.

j-mar wrote in post #13754070
Outstanding info, thank you!

So it sounds like if I want ETTL and I want to remotely control all of my flash units via radio trigger someday, there's no cheap way around it, need to go with one of the expensive radio triggers that supports ETTL and compatible flash units. Correct? I was already planning to get a 5D II at some point this year, which I'm assuming has all the wireless remote controls built in, unlike my T1i.

Okay, last question, I promise... From a practical standpoint, not speaking about wedding or professional photography as I'm sure ETTL is necessary, but just for enthusiasts, do most people use ETTL when they're using multiple flash units, or do you switch to manual anyway?

I almost always switch to manual. E-TTL is great for situations where the flash to subject distance is constantly changing and you need to get the picture quickly. If I have time to set up multiple light stands, modifiers and flashes, I usually have time to meter the flashes and set them manually. After you set up a given softbox a few times, you will basically know what power to set it at without metering it.

Now there may be some situations where E-TTL makes sense. If you set up a couple of flashes to illuminate a dance floor at a party, E-TTL is probably what you need, since flash to subject distance will be different for each couple.

Manual setup is more reproducible. E-TTL lets you work faster.

j-mar wrote in post #13754070
Oh, and maybe I don't understand the full situation, but from the product description of the Lumopro 160, it does indeed have a "digital" optical slave setting which ignores the first ETTL pre-flash. But I'm still learning about all this so maybe there are multiple pre-flashes involved in Canon wireless system.

If you have one flash in E-TTL mode, it will send out a single pre-flash to meter and adjust the flash power. I believe the "digital" optical slave setting is suppose to ignore that pre-flash and fire on the second flash. I have never tested this to see if it works.

When you turn on the Canon wireless system, which is different than E-TTL, the master uses many pre-flashes to communicate with the slaves, and from my experience with the LP-160, the optical slave just doesn't work. It either fires too early or not at all.

If you think you want to someday include studio strobes in your equipment, then you really need to learn manual flash power setup. I don't think the expensive E-TTL radio triggers are worth it if you are mainly shooting portraits, but in some applications they might be worth it.

If you think you want to someday include studio strobes in your equipment, then you really need to learn manual flash power setup. I don't think the expensive E-TTL radio triggers are worth it if you are mainly shooting portraits, but in some applications they might be worth it.[/QUOTE]

TTL and TTL radio triggers are very useful even for portraits, especially outdoors. With multiple flashes you learn ratios with TTL, I know we are used to manual strobes in studio, but there is also a lot being done with speedlights in TTL in studio.....I use them.

Manual is best for constant distances. ETTL can be better for changing distance "run & gun" situations. It is not perfect and may under/over expose. It may not even give the same exposure in seemingly the same situation. It is however a very fast, set-it-and-forget-it system (for the most part).

Tim S wrote in post #13762734
Manual is best for constant distances. ETTL can be better for changing distance "run & gun" situations. It is not perfect and may under/over expose. It may not even give the same exposure in seemingly the same situation. It is however a very fast, set-it-and-forget-it system (for the most part).

Agreed, recently I have been using TTL more for portraits, especially outdoors and with very good results, a few +/- EV tweaks here and there but all in all very good results...I have been learning to trust the system so to speak

Another 430II is not going to change anything as second flash.
580 is ideal in terms of ETTL availability, but it cost a fortune.
I like second option which costs much less.
YN flash as optical slave and 500D build in flash set to minimum power to trigger it.
Or 430EXII on camera and any number and models of flashes which supports optical slave mode.
I don't use remote triggers anymore for it.
Check 500D thread for more info.
https://photography-on-the.net …?p=13765645&pos​tcount=886

Thank you everyone! I pulled the trigger on a YN 560 that will arrive in 2 days (I read all about potential quality issues, but the price was too tempting). I should be able to do 90% of what I envision doing using an ETTL cord for the 430EX II triggering the YN 560, so figured I'd give it a go and see if there's anything I'm not getting out of that setup that I truly need and go from there.

Thanks for the link, Konstantin!