HELP!!! - PLEASE? (warning, long post - very frustrated!

Hi all,

I live in South Florida and my home backs up to one of the zillion man-made lakes down here. Lots of small fish (and some not so small) and I guess all those fish make the lake a popular place for water-fowl.

I have been in this place for over two years now and I haven't managed to get one single bird-in-flight picture that I am satisfied with.

I see what people post here and I have to believe that my problem is some sort of user error. Which is hard for me to admit

I am far from inexperienced with a camera. I have worked as a professional photographer and as a film maker since graduating college as a film student. I worked with and around cameras in the motion picture industry full time over 30 years and then on a part time basis for another 10 years so I could work at my convenience and take care of my son after my wife died when he was a young child.


I had only used film cameras (other than TV cameras in school and as an intern) until I bought a little Canon Elf in 2003. A few years later I added a Canon SX10 IS "superzoom" and I was hooked on digital.

Finally, after over 30+ happy years with my Olympus OM2 and OM1, (still have them, plus an OM 10 I got for my wife that she never used). I got my first digital SLR -A Canon 40D just a few years ago.

It came with a 28-135mm USM "kit lens" - that was the first SLR zoom lens I ever owned. Also the only auto-focus SLR I ever owned. (unless a Polaroid SX-70 and a Canon SX10 count as "SLR" cameras...which I guess technically they are ?).

After buying the 40D I added a 7D - right about the same time that I moved to this place on the lake. I now shoot youth sports on weekends and felt that having a second body would make things easier.

But for taking photos of birds, I go outside my door with one body, one lens, and fire away.

My problem is simple - it's the solution that has me stumped.

I just don't acceptable results. It's not that the images are not sharp - they are out of focus.

There are no problems with the focus systems that I am aware of - The AI Servo doesn't seem to be a likely problem since the results are pretty much the same with both cameras. (7D and 40D). I can't image two cameras having the exact same problem.

I have more than enough light 12 months a year at this latitude. I have tried everything that seems to make sense - I have increased shutter speed, I have stopped down the aperture to get a greater depth of field. On the 7D I have tried expanded spot mode, and zone mode along with the normal (center) single point mode I was used to from the 40D.

I have tried using the IS in both position 1 and 2 on the two lenses I use for birds in flight (a 300mm f4 IS "L" and a 70-200mm f2.8 IS "L"). I have checked both for "micro adjustment" and both seem OK at a zero setting. With and without my Canon 1.4x II extender.

On the 7D, which is what I have been using since I got it -while it's certainly no worse than the 40D, it's not better either, which is why I feel I'm doing something wrong. But given it's focusing system the 7D would seem to to be the better choice.

One setting I'm not sure I don't possibly have wrong is the AF tracking sensitivity. (Fn III -1). I have the slider between the center and the left-most position (slow) which is what was suggested to me by Canon CPS tech support. (although I have gotten conflicting advice on other issues from different Canon techs in the past).

I have FnIII -2 set at the default - "AF priority/Tracking priority".

I admit to being somewhat confused about this particular setting and what the different settings actually mean to me, but I see great photos posted here taken with older cameras or current cameras with simple focusing systems so I'd think that the default settings should be at least adequate if not perfect.


I'm looking at the burst of pics I took today of an ahinga ("Florida snake bird") in flight (from close up when it was on the ground until I got close enough to make it fly off - as I expected and was prepared for).

I can see on the camera's LCD (without zooming in) where the focus point was on each shot. Of course it's tough to keep the focus point on a bird that's 50 or 100 yards away - but of the 18 shots I got off before my buffer slowed me down too much (I'm actually impressed I got 18 using an older Sandisk Utra II shooting RAW + Jpeg - both on "large") ... it looks (at least on the LCD) that the sharpest pic is one where the focus point is off the bird. But I was using "AF point expanded" (I think) so I guess I was close enough.

I had looked at the images on my computer earlier (didn't bother to save them to disk) - but non of them looked even close to acceptable to me once the bird was more than 20 or 30 feet away.

Exposure settings: For the pictures I tried today I used Av mode - I had the aperture set at 7.1 and the shutter speeds while the bird was flying ranged from 1/1600 to 1/2500, but most were at or close to 1/2000th. ISO was set at 400. So motion blur should not seem to be an issue - I did use position 2 on the IS switch (I usually use position 1, but read in an unrelated thread in a different section where someone suggested trying position 2 for something similar - possibly sports?). In any event, I seemed to get the same results as with position 1.

Today I used the 300 f4, but I get the same kind of results with BIF using the 70-200.

I have also tried using the Canon extender (1.4x II) and get the same kind of results on both lenses. I have tried taking the UV filters off, (in fact I had it off today) - no improvement.

PLEASE - I would REALLY appreciate any suggestions! I can post photos if that would help...I just need do all the downsizing and compressing to make things work with my hosting service (Imageshack). I hope there's an easier way to do things, but I know that the 10MB Jpegs are too big for Imageshack to accept.

I was thinking of trying to adjust the "micro focus" settings again, but I don't have any focusing problems with anything but birds in flight. And shooting at 1/2000th seems fast enough that motion blur shouldn't be the problem or even part of the problem.

I do need to sharpen photos of still ducks in the water - but that may because I have my picture style set to "faithful" since I really only use the SLR for paid jobs and I expect to get the most of of my RAW files and working on post processing is a good part of what I get paid for - (suggestions on that welcome too). It would be nice not to need to sharpen every Jpeg. But I thought that (using DPP) if I change the picture style in RAW it will have the same effect as shooting in "standard" (or whatever I change it to).

As for the general softness when viewed at 100%, that doesn't concern me - I'm not sure if that's due to the picture style or to the 18mp sensor making everything look soft at 100% but certainly once sharpened, the images are not only in focus, but look as good as I think any photograph can look on a computer monitor. Except for the birds in flight - Just can't seem to get them in proper focus.


The glass should certainly not be inadequate - I've seen better images taken with the 55-250 kit lens and the 70-300 IS.

The focusing speed and accuracy also seem not logically to be a problem - I see better images posted taken with much less advanced focusing systems, and both these lenses focus fast. Extremely fast in good light.

Shooting too wide? I wouldn't think so at f7.1 which is what I used today - But I've tried f8, f11 and 16 as well on other days , maybe even higher....I just don't have the pictures - I delete anything not worth saving - the smaller apertures don't get better focus - they just need higher ISO or slower shutter speeds - but I do see better pics posted here taken at slower shutter speeds -

Thanks in advance - and sorry for the length of this epic.

Peace,
D.

Hi D,
I can imagine the frustration you have encountered. I had experienced something similar when i first got my supertele and tried BIF at 500mm. I have to rely on a tripod and ballhead. But still, i did not get a lot of keepers to begin with. Over time, thru practice i could see my rate increased.

Your 7D settings sound fine. I have mine set similarly. If the camera+lens don't have problem AF on perched birds or still objects, then it is likely the OOF issue is coming from technique. I have seen situation while the discussion is focusing on settings and gears to resolve an issue, turns out it's the habit or technique that contributed to the problem. So, without shooting side by side you, it's hard to tell what went wrong. But there are a few things you can check or pay attention to.

1. Selecting a spot for good lighting. In the morning or late afternoon is easier to put the sun at our back. I understand birds and ducks flying in all direction, but having an appropriate spot is a good preparation. When the opportunity comes (a duck flying in the right direction), there is your luck (Luck = preparation + opportunity, remember? )

2. Timing/When. I always glance a far to see if any subject is approaching, which may or may not present a BIF shooting opportunity. It's almost always too late if i only scan at limited radius. Extend it further so that when one seems to heading your way, you have enough time to turn the lens, locate it in the Viewfinder, and AF.

3. Based on your comments, you probably shoot without tripod because of IS. Perhaps give tripod+ballhead/gimbal a try? It takes some getting used to but if that bumps up your keeper rate, it might be worth it. Afterall, we just want to get some good photos of our avian friends. We'll do whatever we can, to achieve that.

I hope this helps. And please keep shooting and posting. There are some friendly and helpful folks here in the community. I'm sure you'll get the help you seek. Good luck.

I would MFA again just to be sure

Sorry to hear of your troubles, D. Post some examples of your BIFs. That way people will know what you are talking about and they can better help you. And make sure to include the exif.

Thanks for the responses guys.

I'm tied up now (shooting tethered - cosmetic products) in an corporate office.

When I get home tonight I'll post some of the shots I took yesterday and hope the EXIF info sticks (seems like sometimes it does and sometimes not) - if it doesn't show I'll just add the info myself.

I think I will try to adjust the micro focus again - I did it using that software that was posted (beta) and it made everything look worse. Then I tried by doing it inside, but I don't think I had enough room for the 300 and the zoom (was too close).

True, I have not used a tripod or mono pod - seemed too slow, but I guess with the aforementioned anticipation it can help (but I'd really need a lot of luck).

Again, thanks and I look forward to more exchanges of info - and hopefully the time tomorrow to try and both adjust MFA and also to try some shots.

Peace,
D.

A 7D and a 70-200 or your 300 f/4 should be producing stellar results. Since you appear to know what you're doing, and I believe you do, it's probably something simple. Here are some thoughts:

1. Snap some pics of birds NOT in flight to see if the 7D is grabbing accurate focus and producing acceptable results. If this test comes out good, we need to look elsewhere.

2. The best focus choice I found for shooting birds flying on the 7D was the Spot Focus with the four surrounding 'assist' points. This allows you to focus on a very small area of a bird with the assist points picking up the focus if the centerpoint moves off the bird.

3. Setup camera as stated above. When a bird takes off, allow the camera to achieve focus and track for a second or two, then shoot a burst of 2-4 shots using the high-speed shooting setting. This should net one or more shots in focus with the bird in a position you can appreciate.

Once you gain an understanding of how to shoot moving things with a 7D, it's a beautiful thing! But exactly HOW to get there isn't easily understood and certainly not clearly defined.

Good luck and post some sharp shots real soon.

dave

Could IS be causing the problelm for you? I don't use IS for BIF. Shutter speeds are always over 1/1000 so I don't see the need, but the IS "kicking in" can cause a problem.

Have you moved the focusing control to the back of the camera? Try that, it made for a world of change with my 7.

I would like to see how far away these birds are from you and what the background looks like before I offer up any suggestions. Been through this before with other photographers and finally saw what they were capturing...the focus dot was bigger than the bird and they expected it to be sharp once they cropped it. Also, the background plays a major role in what the camera focuses on especialy if you drift off target.

Duane and Snyderman have some good points/suggestions here. I would also recommend dropping Fn III-1 all the way to the left to give you the maximum leeway between losing/reacquiring your subject.

So, right here is likely a huge portion of your problem, "...Of course it's tough to keep the focus point on a bird that's 50 or 100 yards away..."

As Duane alludes to above, that is a LONG way away from a bird the size on an Anhinga to get a detailed, sharp shot. I find that even for stationary birds, anything outside of about 100ft (30-ish yds) is too far to really get a reasonable shot, even with cropping, on the 400mm.

Aside from that, a few camera suggestions (including some that you're already doing; just keeping in the list for coherence):

• Plan your shoot so that the birds will be front lit, rather than back lit
  
• Get into position before your birds show up and get your exposure dialed in for the lighting
  
• Make sure you are shooting AI Servo drive mode
  
• Strongly suggest back button AF control, if you're not already.
  
• Single, manually chosen AF point or Expansion...do not use Spot here.
  
• Get a good, solid stance with your elbows braced against your body
  
• Stand so that you can smoothly rotate at the hips to track the bird through its path
  
• As long as your shutter is above 1/800, turn off IS or set to Mode 2
  
• Acquire the subject a little way before you want to actually shoot, so that you get tracking locked on
  
• Pan smoothly with the bird, through the point that you finally let go of the shutter release
  

Wow, great responses and the best part is everyone seems to agree on both technique and camera settings - BOTH? (pretty amazing to me) LOL

So it seems (so far) that the only variables I can play around with would be leaving my camera settings as are but using a monopod or tripod (although the 300 IS is not a large or heavy lens)..still, worth a shot.

Maybe changing CFnIII-2 from default to #3 (although the suggester ("snydremark") keeps his at default. But I can see how it could maybe make sense.

As to using back button focus or setting the camera up to have it - unless it's completely weird like the default on the 40D having "live view" disabled by default and the 7D has the "AF-ON" button also off by default, I guess the default is probably how mine is set, which is it starts both metering and focus and keeps making changes as long as the button is held down.

The other settings seem to make less and even no sense in one case to me. One (NO sense) is AE lock, which would be fine if there wasn't already an AE lock button right next to it??? -


CFnIII -1, seems like everyone agrees the setting is OK

Will try zone again - I've gone back and forth, but maybe things were better with zone. I used it first, changed to see how it differed (used spot or expanded), so I can play around with that. I don't shoot at targets that are so far away that they are smaller than the focus square -

I Had IS set to #2 yesterday for the first time, I'll try shutting it off completely - it's the only way I haven't tried (hand held) - Will try using a monopod too.... hope it helps...if not , but it at least gives me hope, I;ll drag out the tripod. Really not that much effort, but it is pretty big. (I only have a high capacity tripod now - rated to hold over 100 pounds - same with ball head).

I'll put up pics when (if) I can figure out how to do it properly (or give up and do it improperly.

The anticipation, best positioning for lighting and subject matter (ideally sun being camera, and closer to the horizon..the closer, usually the better. (Very different in Florida where there are no mountains shading the sun both before sunset and after sunrise. Was fun watching the shadow of the front range sweep east across 30 mile of plains between Boulder and Denver. Talk about contrast!!! Like watching an eclipse. Was easy to see from my house since I was high up against the foothills so I could look down on the whole stretch to Denver.


I wondered for a few minutes if the humidity here (between the Everglades and the Atlantic) could affect focus. Then I remembered that I can shoot a cell tower that is 900 yards from my yard and it's in perfect focus (just needs a bit of sharpening with the 7D - fine with the 40D SOOC.

That wouldn't seem to fit with turning off IS or needing a tripod or micro adjustment.

Maybe the birds have some kind of voodoo magic down here (not that far from Haiti) and don't want to be photographed.


I don't really need to post some still shots from a fairly close distance (100, 150 feet) but I will - I'll even try and find a shot of the cell tower with the extender - add in the 1.6x crop factor and it's an equivalent field of view on a 35mm frame as a 672 mm lens. ....and the pictures are sharp as a razor.

Seems like I do everything pretty much the same way as everyone else seems to. Lot's of agreement in the recommendations. Which is good news in that we have a good group of accomplished camera people in this discussion (of course I'd feel that way about people who do things the same way I do...LOL) - but bad news because it makes me think the camera's broken! (is there such a thing as an "LOL minus"?).

I'll give the pics a shot now - if not up soon, I'll have to work harder on them later. Hope the Exif works too. Gotta eat and unwind a bit - 1:30 am and it's like my 7pm.

Peace,
D.

Cell tower at about 100% (I couldn't tell exactly - I used MS Office Picture Manager to compress and resize - so I just tried to match the size to how it looked in DPP (which I can't upload from directly). Couldn't find a pic on my drive I thought I had with extender - so this is with the 300mm - I'll post it and if the EXIF doesn't show I'll get the info from DPP on the original (too large for Imageshack to upload). This is - according to Google Earth (and my odometer) about 900 yards which I think is about a half mile. (Previewed and I could see EXIF info using Chrome - looked a bit soft to me even after using USM, but I see I had the lens at f4 that day. If you can't see it, it was f4, 1/8000th and ISO 400. Looks like my IS wasn't on (1/8000??)

1876 x 1266

EMBED PREVENTED, IMAGE TOO LARGE: http://img256.imagesha​ck.us …lltowersharpene​dcropp.jpg Click here to see our image rules.

Pic below meant to be in above post - guess I had too many images in the prior post...so here's my attempt at a 100% crop of the bird at around 80 yards...give or take. I'd say more likely further than closer.

1288 x 1936

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People, who know this stuff much better than I, will chime in, but after seeing and reading the above here are a few remarks:

1. Shooting a bird that is 70 yards away with a 300mm lens is a bad idea and will not give you any good results. Frankly I am amazed that the 100% crop is as good as it is!

2. The Ibis (not an Egret) looks funny. Oil painting like. That is often a sign of bad processing. Could also be that it's not in focus or that there is some motion blur. Frankly the eye doesn't seem that sharp or in good focus to me...

3. The Heron (looks like a tricolored) is backlit, which is usually not a good idea. Ideally you want the sun to be behind you. But if you do shoot a backlit bird you have to overexpose so as to properly expose that dark side. You are right about the quality of the light though. Early in the morning and late in the afternoon will give you the best light.

As to MS Viewer app. I don't know it, but when you see an image at 66% or 80% or whatever it is, I'm sure it means that the application is only scaling the image so it fits in the window and as such allows you to see the whole pic.

Based on these few images you posted, I don't see any major AF issue. We photographers just have to accept that, sometimes a situation is just not ideal to capture a photograph. Either the subject is too small in the frame (too far or lens not long enough, or both), or the lighting, subject's expression/poses/perch​, etc, not presenting the elements that "make" a good photo. The images posted above, to me, they seem to fit into those situations. Levina made some good observations there.