would you use your second shooters images to promote a solo shoot?

i'll apologise now because this is gonna be a long post, but please bear with me

yesterday morning i recieved a message on facebook telling me that the photographer i spent last year second shooting with had used one of my shots on an advert. the advert was posted on facebook and was promoting couples sessions in the run up to valentines day.

she will be shooting them herself so i asked her to change the image on the advert because it isn't representative of her own work. but she maintains that because we were working together she has full access to any images i provided to her for weddings/engagement shoots, and as such can do what she wants with them.

our original agreement was that i would second shoot to gain experience and build a portfolio for myself, and whatever i shot was available for me to use for my own purposes. i have recently set up my own website and have used some of the images from these three weddings and the one engagement shoot we did together just as i had always intended. this seemed to cause a bit of tension at the time but i thought nothing of it at the time.

now after our argument she said i have till monday to remove any images from the time we worked together from my website and facebook page. i told her that they would be staying where they are and reminded her of our original verbal agreement but i would reference her/her site on any images i did use - which i thought was reasonable.

she seems to have forgotten that when we were shooting together she had the benefit of a free second shooter, free transport to and from the locations which i provided because she doesn't drive. the whole time we were working together her kit consisted of a 500d, 24-105 f/4 and the 18-55 kit lens along with a flash gun (actually she added a 50/1.4 for the last wedding) which i thought was sub-standard and told her so many times. she has since upgraded a 5d after using mine and seeing the resulting pictures but she is still woefully under equipped for the type of work she is taking on.

she shoots only jpeg but didn't know that there are different picture styles with adjustable settings , i shoot raw so to accomodate her needs i shot raw+jepg giving her the jpegs and keeping the raw files for my own use. but when i asked her what here jpeg setting were so that i could use the same for consistancy she hadn't a clue what i was asking for! she has no concept of noise reduction or shapening and doesn't accept that raw is more usefull than jpeg.

the best i ever heard her come out with was that she split a cup of tea on an sd card and was really upset because it was and i quote ' a pro card and gave my images a real shine to them'. i showed this message to my girlfriend who almost spat her coffee out, she thought it was a joke! but from past experience i knew it wasn't lol

i'm going to wind up this essay of a post because i'm pissed off and i think it probably shows so my question is this, would you use a photo taken by your second shooter for a promotion whch they won't be working on? or if you are a second shooter would you be happy for the main tog to use one of your shots for this sort of purpose? i've made my thoughts on this pretty clear and although it takes a lot to put me in a bad mood this has gotten under my skin in a big way.

i genuinely thought it would be a case of a couple of texts between friends to sort this out, but throught the course of events yesterday i think our working relationship is pretty much beyond repair unfortunately.

"...reminded her of our original verbal agreement ..."

You know what they say - a verbal agreement isn't worth the paper it's written on.

tomj wrote in post #13823436
"...reminded her of our original verbal agreement ..."

You know what they say - a verbal agreement isn't worth the paper it's written on.

true, but even from a moral viewpoint would you agree or dissagree with what has occured?

i think there is a lesson to be learnt from this whole affair

So again in short, the issue is....that she is using your photos for promo work and you're not getting the piece of the pie and she wants you to remove those particular and any photos from the gigs from your site/blog ? is this correct in short version ?

Technically surely the photo she is using is representative of the work that her photography company/business is capable of producing. Granted you no longer work for the company/business, but the status of a single employee isn't likely to cause company to suddenly not use marketing material based (if in part) on what those employees (during their time employed) were capable of producing.

As for the demands on your own work, that sounds like a tit for tat fight back - you mess her up she wants to mess you up.

Personally, whilst its not an ideal situation it will end up a your word VS hers situation and it will only end with further troubles. I'd just drop the whole issue and not press the matter any further. Chalk it up and learn to next time get the contact clearly written out and signed.

Eiro wrote in post #13823471
So again in short, the issue is....that she is using your photos for promo work and you're not getting the piece of the pie and she wants you to remove those particular and any photos from the gigs from your site/blog ? is this correct in short version ?

in a nutshell yes

keith30d wrote in post #13823479
in a nutshell yes

You've got better since, correct ? You feel like you have a certain advancement since you've shot with the chick ?

Sorry for the long post but have alot to say


First thing I don’t agree 100% with what she has done but you worked as a second shooter for free? Well you dident really work for free you got payed just not in money, you got paid in experience and protection, if you did a bad job on these weddings you where protected by her company name, the problems land with her. As it happens it sounds like you got some very nice photos and you didn’t need the protection hence why your now shooting for your self but that safety net was there in exchange for this she got the rites to use your photos for sale to the bride and groom and also to use them as example of what her company can do.

I say company can do as it wasn’t her taking the photos but you where employed by her company so as long as she can match that quality her self, by using another shooter or by using you again under the company name I think there is nothing wrong with using the photo for advertising. Its not 100% right and not all that moral but an example would be I do a lot of video work for one company part of the deal is I can not use that work to promote my company as we are competitors but the owner of the company is a producer and doesn’t know how to use the cameras now I only work freelance for the company but they advertise day in and day out using footage I have shot and edited. If I don’t work for the company anymore there still going to be using that footage but its showing what I can do not the company but as long as they offer the same quality to clients no one will ever know.

Round the U.K there are lots of chain shops that shoot photos of babies and kids. The photos used to advertise where taken by one photographer and then sent out as promotional items to 100’s of shops.

I would keep using the photos on your site and try no to fall out over it explain to her you shot as a second shooter for no money on the grounds you could use the photos as promotion. She should understand but if you both live and work in the same area there might be a chance she wants to stop you competing with her and that’s where her real problem lies.

I think you have to let her use the photo if you had a contract with her I am betting it gives her the right to the photos for promotion. If you dident have a contact you could try taking it to the courts but I think just let this one go. If the photo is a lot better then she can do on her own the word will soon get round that she is advertising over her head and a few disappointed clients will take her out of the market for you.

i had more oppertunities to shoot, so yeah the practice was useful. but in terms of learning about the technicalities of shooting a wedding or portrait shoot i was on my own. she was little help with what helping with camera set-up, lighting or any real form of mentorship. she would ask me for advice on how to recreate shots she had seen on blogs which i was surprised at to be honest because surely she should be the one i was asking for advice.

AlexMcCranor wrote in post #13823498
Sorry for the long post but have alot to say


First thing I don’t agree 100% with what she has done but you worked as a second shooter for free? Well you dident really work for free you got payed just not in money, you got paid in experience and protection, if you did a bad job on these weddings you where protected by her company name, the problems land with her. As it happens it sounds like you got some very nice photos and you didn’t need the protection hence why your now shooting for your self but that safety net was there in exchange for this she got the rites to use your photos for sale to the bride and groom and also to use them as example of what her company can do.

I say company can do as it wasn’t her taking the photos but you where employed by her company so as long as she can match that quality her self, by using another shooter or by using you again under the company name I think there is nothing wrong with using the photo for advertising. Its not 100% right and not all that moral but an example would be I do a lot of video work for one company part of the deal is I can not use that work to promote my company as we are competitors but the owner of the company is a producer and doesn’t know how to use the cameras now I only work freelance for the company but they advertise day in and day out using footage I have shot and edited. If I don’t work for the company anymore there still going to be using that footage but its showing what I can do not the company but as long as they offer the same quality to clients no one will ever know.

Round the U.K there are lots of chain shops that shoot photos of babies and kids. The photos used to advertise where taken by one photographer and then sent out as promotional items to 100’s of shops.

I would keep using the photos on your site and try no to fall out over it explain to her you shot as a second shooter for no money on the grounds you could use the photos as promotion. She should understand but if you both live and work in the same area there might be a chance she wants to stop you competing with her and that’s where her real problem lies.

I think you have to let her use the photo if you had a contract with her I am betting it gives her the right to the photos for promotion. If you dident have a contact you could try taking it to the courts but I think just let this one go. If the photo is a lot better then she can do on her own the word will soon get round that she is advertising over her head and a few disappointed clients will take her out of the market for you.

thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed reply, i agree with what you are saying and as time goes on i am beginning to calm down. it was more the attitude she took which got my back up, and i think that by setting up my own website there's a possibility she may feel threatened. but up till yesterday i was looking forward to working with her again and there was not intent to threaten her business, perhaps she saw it differently but she didn't raise her concerns with me at the time.

Let her use the image to promote her business.

Ignore her requests for you to stop using the images to promote your business.

Overread wrote in post #13823473
Technically surely the photo she is using is representative of the work that her photography company/business is capable of producing. Granted you no longer work for the company/business, but the status of a single employee isn't likely to cause company to suddenly not use marketing material based (if in part) on what those employees (during their time employed) were capable of producing.

As for the demands on your own work, that sounds like a tit for tat fight back - you mess her up she wants to mess you up.

Personally, whilst its not an ideal situation it will end up a your work VS hers situation and it will only end with further troubles. I'd just drop the whole issue and not press the matter any further. Chalk it up and learn to next time get the contact clearly written out and signed.

i think this sums it up dude, thanks for the input

cdifoto wrote in post #13823514
Let her use the image to promote her business.

Ignore her requests for you to stop using the images to promote your business.

to draw a line under this i have considered doing that, cut my losses and start afresh just.

i will continue using the images that's a certainty

keith30d wrote in post #13823510
thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed reply, i agree with what you are saying and as time goes on i am beginning to calm down. it was more the attitude she took which got my back up, and i think that by setting up my own website there's a possibility she may feel threatened. but up till yesterday i was looking forward to working with her again and there was not intent to threaten her business, perhaps she saw it differently but she didn't raise her concerns with me at the time.

Not a problem its hard to say, i have a few problems along a simular line myself.

Its not easy but i think a lot of problems come from someone might be training or learning with you and then opening a shop next door the following day.

Unless your happy to be her second shooter forever or move to another town to start your company i think a fall out might always have been on the cards.

Once you make the move from second shooter helping her look good for free or cheap and start being the other option for clients working at the same prices as her but doing a better job she is going to do anything she can to make her self look good and you look bad.

E.g making you take your photos down.

Just try to end up being friendly with her and move past the problems keep the photos on your site but you never know when a few days second shooting might help pay the bills.

AlexMcCranor wrote in post #13823571
Not a problem its hard to say, i have a few problems along a simular line myself.

Its not easy but i think a lot of problems come from someone might be training or learning with you and then opening a shop next door the following day.

Unless your happy to be her second shooter forever or move to another town to start your company i think a fall out might always have been on the cards.

Once you make the move from second shooter helping her look good for free or cheap and start being the other option for clients working at the same prices as her but doing a better job she is going to do anything she can to make her self look good and you look bad.

E.g making you take your photos down.

Just try to end up being friendly with her and move past the problems keep the photos on your site but you never know when a few days second shooting might help pay the bills.

cheers dude you talk a lot of sense. i'm lucky that i'm not relying on photography to pay the bills, but she is so i can see it from her point of view. maybe a fall out WAS always going to be the outcome from all this as unfortunate as that is