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FORUMS Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon Digital Cameras 
Thread started 13 Feb 2012 (Monday) 11:33
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Need your expert opinion on Camera selection

 
ashikuli1
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Feb 13, 2012 11:33 |  #1

Hello - I need your input on which camera should I upgrade to:
Current Camera - Canon 60D
Current Lens: Canon 28-70 L, Canon 50 mm, Canon 17-40 L
Camera I wanted to upgrade: 7D or 5D Mark II
What I shoot: Portrait, landscape, Kids, Street life in low light
My question I need help: should 7D be a good option, or should I get 5D. I like to see more sharpness and details in my picture, I know some this will come from lens selection. However I only want to stick with low range zooms now, no prime. One of the deal braked for 5D for me is not having a on board internal flash. Do you guys think this is a big issue? I do have a canon speedlight. Does the lowed FPS between 7D and 5D makes a huge difference given my shooting preference? I do not shoot fast moving objects.


Canon 6D|Canon 60D |Canon 50 1.8| Canon 85mm 1.2 L | Canon 24-105 L| Canon 17-40 L| Canon 17-55 IS | Canon 70-200 L F4 IS | 430Ex II |

  
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crn3371
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Feb 13, 2012 11:38 |  #2

If you're not getting good results from a 60D and those lenses than you're either too critical, or it's user error. 7D shouldn't be any sharper as it is the same sensor as the 60D.




  
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Numenorean
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Feb 13, 2012 11:38 |  #3

5D II if that's what you shoot. It would be the best.


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cfcRebel
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Feb 13, 2012 11:41 |  #4

I agree with crn3371. If you can't get nice images from your current setup for what you are shooting, you won't get any better results via upgrading body. At least not much. Perhaps upgrade your technique, processing skill, make more sense?


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Madweasel
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Feb 13, 2012 11:42 |  #5

For your requirements the 5DII will suit best, but if you want more detail and sharpness than you currently have I'm not sure how much more you'll get. While there is a step, it's not that great. Without examples to judge I can only guess, but it sounds to me like there is more to be had from your current gear.


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Feb 13, 2012 11:42 |  #6

If I want more details in picture I add more light, on camera flash is not going to provide it often, so does single flash. You need more light for portraits, kids to have best IQ.
If your L zooms doesn't provide sharpness which will satisfy you - switch to primes, they don't have to be Ls.
Fast wide prime is the the answer for low light street life also.


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mrrikki
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Feb 13, 2012 12:06 |  #7

crn3371 wrote in post #13878928 (external link)
If you're not getting good results from a 60D and those lenses than you're either too critical, or it's user error. 7D shouldn't be any sharper as it is the same sensor as the 60D.

I agree, I have both cameras and main reasons I go for 7D over 60D is sports for higher fps and focus options, also when I want better weather sealing. Went on holiday last week only took 60D and wife's 1000D as back up and didn't miss not having the 7D to use.

Btw I am doing weddings as second shooter soon which is why I got the 7D as my back up was a 1000D at the time also I needed the fps for Rugby, no other reasons.


GEAR: Canon 7D Mark II, 7D & 6D Lenses: Canon 300 f2.8 L IS, 70-200 f2.8 L, 24-105 L, Canon 50mm f1.8 & Sigma 1.4x Converter.
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ashikuli1
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Feb 13, 2012 12:18 as a reply to  @ mrrikki's post |  #8

Thanks for all your input. Here is link for some of my shots for your review: http://s1262.photobuck​et.com/albums/ii610/as​hikuli/ (external link)
I agree with you all that there is for sure room for huge improvement from my end. Still wanted to run by you guys before getting a body, does the auto focus better in both 7D and 5D II compared to 60D. Spec says it is better, but how much according to your opinion?


Canon 6D|Canon 60D |Canon 50 1.8| Canon 85mm 1.2 L | Canon 24-105 L| Canon 17-40 L| Canon 17-55 IS | Canon 70-200 L F4 IS | 430Ex II |

  
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mrrikki
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Feb 13, 2012 12:24 |  #9

ashikuli1 wrote in post #13879123 (external link)
Thanks for all your input. Here is link for some of my shots for your review: http://s1262.photobuck​et.com/albums/ii610/as​hikuli/ (external link)
I agree with you all that there is for sure room for huge improvement from my end. Still wanted to run by you guys before getting a body, does the auto focus better in both 7D and 5D II compared to 60D. Spec says it is better, but how much according to your opinion?

I 90% of the time select one focus point so having the extra on the 7D is grey and at times when I use my 60D I miss them but always get round it. The focus options and customisiation is great but can take a bit of getting used to.


GEAR: Canon 7D Mark II, 7D & 6D Lenses: Canon 300 f2.8 L IS, 70-200 f2.8 L, 24-105 L, Canon 50mm f1.8 & Sigma 1.4x Converter.
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Old ­ Baldy
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Feb 13, 2012 13:41 |  #10

ashikuli1 wrote in post #13879123 (external link)
Thanks for all your input. Here is link for some of my shots for your review: http://s1262.photobuck​et.com/albums/ii610/as​hikuli/ (external link)
I agree with you all that there is for sure room for huge improvement from my end. Still wanted to run by you guys before getting a body, does the auto focus better in both 7D and 5D II compared to 60D. Spec says it is better, but how much according to your opinion?

The 60D has better AF sensors than the 5DM2 (all cross-type vs single central cross-type for the 5DM2).

I don't think the 7D upgrade will help you much for your type of photography. The 5DM2 may be a little better, but frankly, I think the cost for perceived benefit will be tough to justify.

I'd recommend something I myself don't do enough of myself....learn and practise more with the equipment I have! :)


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amfoto1
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Feb 13, 2012 16:45 |  #11

Regarding AF....

Autofocus in 5DII is not better than 60D's overall. Some might say it's not as good. At the very least, the AF systems are different, more tailored to each camera's basic design purposes or goals.

5DII has nine visible and selectable or usable AF points, same as 60D. However, on 5DII, only the center point is the more sensitive "cross type". All nine points in 60D are "cross type". This makes the outer points on 60D more generally useful.

Something the 60D doesn't have, the 5DII has six additional "hidden" AF points clustered right around the center one that can be turned on or off optionally. However, they are only effective in AI Servo mode, so are used to help the camera track moving subjects. Even so, 60D is better at tracking movement than 5DII. Of the subjects you mention, perhaps only kids are a relevant and possibly faster moving subjects.

5DII autofocus also manages to focus... though it will do so pretty slowly... at about 1EV lower light than either 60D or 7D. That might be relevant when shooting street life in low light situations.

7D has the much fancier 19 point AF system. All 19 points are "cross type". In addition, the camera has a dedicated AF processor, similar to 1D series cameras. That makes it very good at tracking moving subjects. This and a few other upgrades mostly for "sports/action/pro" shooting are what you pay the extra for, when you buy a 7D.

If you have trouble getting good focus results with 60D, which is an easier to use, more simple and straightforward design AF system.... 7D would probably be very frustrating. 5DII would be more familiar, though will generally be a little slower.

Concerns about image quality...

You would see no gains going from 60D to 7D. They are identical when it comes to IQ. And with good lens, skill and proper post-processing, you would have a hard time telling either of them apart from 5DII images, unless making really large prints from them.

Straight from the camera, images from 5DII appear sharper. But that's just because the crop sensor cameras have to use strong anti-alias filters that make their images appear softer initially, but when sharpening is properly applied they will have nearly as much fine detail.

5DII is ideal for a landscape photographer who is going to be making very large prints. But a 60D or 7D can nearly equal it, with good lenses, skill shooting and proper post-processing of your images.

5DII does offer slightly greater dynamic range, meaning it can retain more detail in highlights and shadows, compared to the crop sensor cameras.

5DII also is useable about one stop higher ISO than 60D or 7D, will give lower noise in images at high ISOs. This is just the nature of a less crowded, full frame image sensor. For example, where I'll use 7D to 3200 without much concern or need to spend a lot of extra time on the images in post-processing, I will use 5DII to ISO 6400.

Built-in flash...

5DII doesn't have one... 60D and 7D both do have one. A deal breaker? Really?

In my opinion, built-in flashes are a joke. They are anemic and located in the worst possible place for nasty redeye, ugly shadows and even can be partially obstructed by some lenses. If Canon offered 60D or 7D without a built-in flash for $3 savings, I'd take the savings over the flash. I have 9 Canon cameras with built-in flashes and can count on one hand the number of times over the past ten years that I've actually used them. An accessory flash is much better option... far more versatile and powerful... giving much better results. Modern ETTL flashes are super easy to use, too.

You already have an accessory flash... I'm not sure why you'd consider it a deal breaker or not, if a camera has a built-in flash.

FPS...

Is pretty meaningless for most of what you say you shoot. Kids might be an exception on occasion.... but your current camera can shoot 5.3 fps, as fast as or faster than the 5DII and most other DSLRs & 35mm film SLRs ever made, though not as fast as the 7D.

For the purposes you mention... These three camera models break down as follows:

Portraits: 5DII best, 60D 2nd best, 7D 3rd best.
Landscapes: 5DII best, 60D 2nd best, 7D 3rd best.
Kids: 7D best, 60D 2nd best, 5DII 3rd best.
Street/low light: 5DII best, 60D 2nd best, 7D 3rd best.

Note: I rank 7D lower than 60D in many of these cases only because it costs more, but nothing is gained, image quality will be pretty much equal.

However, looking at the small portfolio of images you have posted, I would ask how much have you worked with the 60D? Is it the first DSLR you have used?

I do not think you need to be considering a different camera, but learning how to get the best out of the one you have. There are some things you might want to do. For example, some of your shots might have benefited from using a circular polarizer, such as shots of water where there are reflections. Another thing you might want to try is the EF-D focus screen for your camera, which has a grid on it to help keep horizons level, buildings vertical and arrange compositions. Also, many of you images look super saturated... I am not sure it that is intentional or not. Maybe it is. If not and if you don't already have one, you might consider a graphics quality computer monitor and a calibration device for it.

Those are just a few ideas, things that I think would be money far better spent than changing cameras. Other things... take some classes in photography, read some books on photography... join a local photography club and go shoot more. All these will likely give you far better return with the camera you already have, than switching camera models now.

If your photo numbers are sequential, you appear to have taken less than 2000 images with the 60D (Heck, some days I shoot more than 2000 images, average about 50,000 a year). I really think you need to spend more time with the camera you have and exercise some patience.

Henri Cartier-Bresson said "Your first 10,000 images are your worst." But that was back in the days of film. With digital cameras that promote thoughtless snapshooting and high frame rates, the figure today is probably closer to 50,000.


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ashikuli1
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Feb 14, 2012 13:58 as a reply to  @ amfoto1's post |  #12

Alan - thank you so much for taking time to help me out. You have made some great comparison and contrast to make my decision. These are some valid points, specially improvement from my end. Let me know if you have any specific suggestion besides the ones you already mentioned. I am planning to shoot more and join a class soon. Once again thanks a lot.
bw!


Canon 6D|Canon 60D |Canon 50 1.8| Canon 85mm 1.2 L | Canon 24-105 L| Canon 17-40 L| Canon 17-55 IS | Canon 70-200 L F4 IS | 430Ex II |

  
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gonzogolf
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Feb 14, 2012 14:06 |  #13

I have two thoughts that have been somewhat covered but I will throw them out there for reinforcement. The first is of all the reasons not to get a 5DII the lack of the built in flash is the worst one. Popup flashes are generally terrible light in the worst place. They might be useful as fill on a bright sunny day, but thats about it. The benefits of that camera far outweigh the loss of a bad light source. The second one is that you really should treat yourself to one fast prime lens. I would recommend the 85 1.8. Its about as sharp as many L zooms, and has the benefit of shallow DOF and it will help you begin to see certain photos in different ways. I dont want to turn this into a prime VS zoom thing, as I use zooms a lot myself. But its worth the investment to see.




  
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L.J.G.
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Feb 14, 2012 14:13 |  #14

Just looking at the link to your images the bias seems to be in an area where the 5D2 would be the better option. Just a point on kids. Many say yep, get the 7D for faster AF. I agree and disagree with that a bit. I always found it better to get back from kids playing so you have more of a chance with them. They move so fast and if you are close they often try to include you and run straight at you. When they do this you have little if no chance to get good shots. If you are back from them and they are playing together they tend not to worry about you, you're out of their field of immediate vision and you have a far better chance of shooting them. I use my 5D2 and 70-200 for this and it works out well. Using the centre focus point with that lens focus is lightning fast, certainly no worse than my 50D.


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miguelr
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Feb 14, 2012 14:33 |  #15

I would say stay where you are. But if you had to upgrade, 5dii.


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