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Thread started 14 Feb 2012 (Tuesday) 04:10
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Full Frame vs Crop: Real world differences in DOF?

 
gdourado07
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Feb 14, 2012 04:10 |  #1

Hello,

How are you?
First, I know this has been covered here, and around the web multiple times.
I've read articles, posts and blogs on the topic.
I know that one of the variables that influence DOF is sensor size.
That is why compact cameras have dificulty producing bokeh and all that...
The thing I was wondering is the real world difference that it makes...

Let's imagine the following...
One person has a 7D with a 30mm f1.4 and a 50mm f1.4.
A second person has a 5D with a 50mm f1.4 and a 85mm f1.4.

They are both going to do portraits.
The person with the 7D will use the 30mm for full and half bosy shots and the 50mm for head and shoulders and face shots.
The 5D shooter will do the same, but with the 50 and the 85.

They will both be going for the same composition.

Would the DOF be very different?
Would the larger sensor produce better bokeh and overall a better shot?

Hope to hear from you.

Cheers!


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FlyingPhotog
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Feb 14, 2012 04:15 |  #2

"Bokeh" is a product of lens contruction and not the sensor. It is the subjective quality of the area that is oof and not the actual amount of blur.

All things being equal though, the full frame body will generate shallower depth of field.


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muusers
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Feb 14, 2012 04:22 |  #3

FlyingPhotog wrote in post #13894551 (external link)
"Bokeh" is a product of lens contruction and not the sensor. It is the subjective quality of the area that is oof and not the actual amount of blur.

All things being equal though, the full frame body will generate shallower depth of field.

No.

http://www.dofmaster.c​om/dofjs.html (external link)

DOF is a result of focal length, focusdistance and aperture. Sensor has less to do with that.

But the bigger sensor gives you a larger FOV, so to achieve the same framing as a smaller sensor, you'll have to either step closer (decrease focus distance) or 'zoom in' (increase focal lenght). (Often) resulting in a shallower DOF.


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SkipD
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Feb 14, 2012 04:29 |  #4

muusers wrote in post #13894560 (external link)
No.

http://www.dofmaster.c​om/dofjs.html (external link)

DOF is a result of focal length, focusdistance and aperture. Sensor has less to do with that.

But the bigger sensor gives you a larger FOV, so to achieve the same framing as a smaller sensor, you'll have to either step closer (decrease focus distance) or 'zoom in' (increase focal lenght). (Often) resulting in a shallower DOF.

You did not read the original post. The OP's scenario is using different focal lengths on the two different format cameras to provide the same field (angle) of view on both cameras with the two cameras used in the same location.


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RandyS
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Feb 14, 2012 04:32 |  #5

muusers wrote in post #13894560 (external link)
No.

http://www.dofmaster.c​om/dofjs.html (external link)

DOF is a result of focal length, focusdistance and aperture. Sensor has less to do with that.

But the bigger sensor gives you a larger FOV, so to achieve the same framing as a smaller sensor, you'll have to either step closer (decrease focus distance) or 'zoom in' (increase focal lenght). (Often) resulting in a shallower DOF.

And the OP had already covered "zooming in" by having his imaginary full frame shooter deal with framing differences by using longer focal length lenses than the crop frame shooter.




  
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muusers
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Feb 14, 2012 04:35 |  #6

SkipD wrote in post #13894569 (external link)
You did not read the original post. The OP's scenario is using different focal lengths on the two different format cameras to provide the same field (angle) of view on both cameras with the two cameras used in the same location.

You're right. :oops:


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xarqi
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Feb 14, 2012 04:38 |  #7

The DoF will be different in the two scenarios, but that difference will be due to the difference in focal length, not to the difference in sensor size.




  
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gdourado07
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Feb 14, 2012 05:02 |  #8

I saw an article on another site that said the crop would require a wider aperture to achieve the same DOF.
It backed it up with some pictures:

http://www.seriouscomp​acts.com …ame-vs-crop-5035-full.jpg (external link)

http://www.seriouscomp​acts.com …ame-vs-crop-13585blur.jpg (external link)

Full article:
http://www.seriouscomp​acts.com …s-full-frame-vs-crop-162/ (external link)

Does this mean that:

Shoting a subject from 2 meters with a background 5 meters away from the subject.

Using a 7D with 30mm at 1.4 will render the background with less blur than a 5D with 50mm at 1.4?

Cheers!


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melanopsin
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Feb 14, 2012 05:03 as a reply to  @ xarqi's post |  #9

the explanation may not be easy to understand. Here is Zeiss explanation (pdf):

http://www.zeiss.com …/$File/CLN35_Bo​keh_en.pdf (external link)

Note the chart showing to get the same dof from smaller sensors requires lens with faster f/#.




  
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Feb 14, 2012 05:22 as a reply to  @ melanopsin's post |  #10

I'm getting headache by reading all technical stuff here :cool:


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JeffreyG
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Feb 14, 2012 05:22 |  #11

When you use the two cameras to take the same picture (using a longer focal length on the larger format to achieve the same perspective and the same field of view) then the larger format will deliver less depth of field at any given aperture.

The difference is 1 and 1/3 stops. So a shot at f/1.4 on the 1.6X sensor could be replicated in all ways by a 1.6X longer focal length and an aperture of f/2.2 on a FF sensor.

I changed from having a 1.6X sensor body to a FF body several years ago, and one of the things I noticed when I made the change was that I had to learn to shoot everything stopped down just a bit more from what I had become used to.


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gdourado07
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Feb 14, 2012 05:36 |  #12

So, for example...

85mm on crop is equivalent to 135mm on FF, kind of.
A canon EF135 can go to F2, but an 85 can go to 1.8, 1.4 or 1.2, depending on models.
So, if I shoot the 135 on the 5d at F2, I can then shoot the 85 at 1.4 on the 7d and get the same DOF, right?
Since I cannot open the aperture below 2.0 on the FF, on that particular scenario, there is no difference, right?

But if I shoot the 50mm on the 5D at 1.4, I would have to shoot the 30mm on the 7d at f0.95 to get the same DOF?
Since there is no f0.95 or f1.0 30mm lens for crop, the full frame can get more DOF, correct?

That also applies to zooms, we have a 24-70 and a 17-55, both 2.8 zooms, and pretty equivalent focal lenghts if the 24-70 is used on FF and the 17-55 on a crop.
Since they both open to f2.8, the 24-70 on FF will always produce less DOF, right?

Cheers!


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bohdank
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Feb 14, 2012 07:05 |  #13

Yes. Assuming maximum aperture.


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NicuB
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Feb 14, 2012 07:15 |  #14

muusers wrote in post #13894560 (external link)
No.

http://www.dofmaster.c​om/dofjs.html (external link)

DOF is a result of focal length, focusdistance and aperture. Sensor has less to do with that.

But the bigger sensor gives you a larger FOV, so to achieve the same framing as a smaller sensor, you'll have to either step closer (decrease focus distance) or 'zoom in' (increase focal lenght). (Often) resulting in a shallower DOF.


Try changing the camera on that link to a FF camera and see if the DOF changes. ;)




  
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bohdank
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Feb 14, 2012 07:31 |  #15

When I had a 40D and a 7D, for a short time, I never had to think about having too little depth of field with my lenses. With the 5D/5DII, having enough DOF became something I had to think about when shooting head or head and shoulder shots, even 1/2 body.


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