Approve the Cookies
This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and our Privacy Policy.
OK
Index  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Guest
New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Register to forums    Log in

 
FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos The Business of Photography 
Thread started 12 Mar 2012 (Monday) 12:41
Search threadPrev/next
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

TFCD shoot - MUA providing models

 
joeblack2022
Goldmember
3,005 posts
Likes: 5
Joined Sep 2011
Location: The Great White North
     
Mar 12, 2012 12:41 |  #1

As the title says, I have an opportunity to do a TFCD shoot with a MUA. She is providing and dealing with the models.

Apart from the TFCD agreement with the MUA, I'm thinking I should be covered with model releases as well? Not sure what arrangement they have or whether she is paying these models, but I don't think that makes any difference to the wording of the releases?


Joel

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)
Dan ­ Marchant
Do people actually believe in the Title Fairy?
Avatar
5,245 posts
Gallery: 19 photos
Likes: 1543
Joined Oct 2011
Location: Where I'm from is unimportant, it's where I'm going that counts.
     
Mar 12, 2012 18:40 |  #2

It depends on exactly which part of the great white north you live but the norm* is that as the photographer you own the copyright on the images, unless you sign an agreement that assigns the copyright to someone else. As such you are the one who decides what can and can't be done with the photos and if you intend/hope to sell them for "commercial use" (advertising/websites etc) then yes, you need a model release form. You should also have an acceptable usage agreement, or an acceptable usage clause in the TF agreement, which clearly states what the MUA and the models may/may not do with the images (use in portfolio OK, use on FB OK, selling images not OK, entering them in photographic competitions not OK.... etc).

Of course the above is the legal reality. You also need to take into account the business reality. The MUA and models are contributing their time/effort just as much as you are. They may well think of this venture as a partnership and ask/demand that they get a share from any commercial exploitation of the images or place restrictions on your use of the images (everyone is allowed to use them in their portfolio, but no one is allowed to sell them). Such requests are neither fair or unfair, they are just business negotiations. You all need to agree the terms on which you are doing this TF shoot in advance so that there are no misunderstandings later.

*In Canada, under certain circumstances the client owns the copyright.


Dan Marchant
Website/blog: danmarchant.com (external link)
Instagram: @dan_marchant (external link)
Gear Canon 5DIII + Fuji X-T2 + lenses + a plastic widget I found in the camera box.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
RDKirk
Adorama says I'm "packed."
Avatar
12,973 posts
Gallery: 2 photos
Likes: 513
Joined May 2004
Location: USA
     
Mar 13, 2012 08:15 as a reply to  @ Dan Marchant's post |  #3

It depends on exactly which part of the great white north you live but the norm* is that as the photographer you own the copyright on the images, unless you sign an agreement that assigns the copyright to someone else. As such you are the one who decides what can and can't be done with the photos and if you intend/hope to sell them for "commercial use" (advertising/websites etc) then yes, you need a model release form. You should also have an acceptable usage agreement, or an acceptable usage clause in the TF agreement, which clearly states what the MUA and the models may/may not do with the images (use in portfolio OK, use on FB OK, selling images not OK, entering them in photographic competitions not OK.... etc).

Well, he still needs a model release to use the images regardless who owns the copyright, but the owner of the copyright can stipulate the range of uses his release can authorize.

There may be many licensed users of an image, but each licensed user needs a model release for his particular commercial use, or a copy or reliable knowledge of a release that legally covers his particular commercial use. My model releases, for instance, don't cover anybody else or anyone else's uses but my own.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Dan ­ Marchant
Do people actually believe in the Title Fairy?
Avatar
5,245 posts
Gallery: 19 photos
Likes: 1543
Joined Oct 2011
Location: Where I'm from is unimportant, it's where I'm going that counts.
     
Mar 13, 2012 11:21 |  #4

RDKirk wrote in post #14077450 (external link)
Well, he still needs a model release to use the images regardless who owns the copyright, but the owner of the copyright can stipulate the range of uses his release can authorize.

Assuming that he is going to use them for "commercial use" - which is advertising/promotion/​marketing. If he just wanted to sell prints he wouldn't need a release.

....My model releases, for instance, don't cover anybody else or anyone else's uses but my own.

Are these the releases you use for TF shoots or is that for any shoot? If any can I ask why you would limit your options in that way (or do you expect to go back to the model and get a new release if someone wants to buy an image for commercial use?)


Dan Marchant
Website/blog: danmarchant.com (external link)
Instagram: @dan_marchant (external link)
Gear Canon 5DIII + Fuji X-T2 + lenses + a plastic widget I found in the camera box.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
joeblack2022
THREAD ­ STARTER
Goldmember
3,005 posts
Likes: 5
Joined Sep 2011
Location: The Great White North
     
Mar 13, 2012 13:29 |  #5

Thanks for the responses guys, it turns out the "models" are amateurs and from the sound of it just looking for some pics for personal use.

In any case I'll use releases for them so I have that covered off. I don't see myself selling the photos in the future but certainly would want to use them for promotional purposes if they are suitable.

Good call on the copyright Dan, this is what I found:

Do Canadian creators own the copyright in their works?

Yes. All Canadian creators of original works automatically own the copyright in their original (personally created) works.

EXCEPTION:

In commissioned (assigned) photographic works, if the creator does not have an agreement to the contrary with the commissioner of the work, the commissioner of the work shall own the copyright in the work, once the work has been paid for.
See laws.justice.gc.ca - rid-38969 Ownership of Copyright, Section 13(2).

http://www.capic.org …-copyright-laws-in-canada (external link)


Joel

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
RDKirk
Adorama says I'm "packed."
Avatar
12,973 posts
Gallery: 2 photos
Likes: 513
Joined May 2004
Location: USA
     
Mar 13, 2012 16:06 |  #6

Are these the releases you use for TF shoots or is that for any shoot? If any can I ask why you would limit your options in that way (or do you expect to go back to the model and get a new release if someone wants to buy an image for commercial use?)

I'm doing consumer photography--personal portraits--so my model release limits my use to promoting my own business. I also do commercial portraits--headshots and such--and my model release for those I also limit myself to promotion of my business.

I would go back to my subjects if I should want to sell their images for commercial use, and I'd offer them local scale modeling wages for them.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
joeblack2022
THREAD ­ STARTER
Goldmember
3,005 posts
Likes: 5
Joined Sep 2011
Location: The Great White North
     
Mar 28, 2012 16:11 |  #7

So we did the shoot last week and I sent her some finished samples to tide her over while I process the rest of the shots. I said that I was aiming for 2-3 shots per model (4 in all, plus 2 had costume changes).

Response I get was, "Can I see all of them still? Just for my own viewing."

I guess I know what the consensus answer will be but what say you?


Joel

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
RDKirk
Adorama says I'm "packed."
Avatar
12,973 posts
Gallery: 2 photos
Likes: 513
Joined May 2004
Location: USA
     
Mar 28, 2012 16:28 |  #8

Show as many as you want to show. I presume that would be as many as you want to represent your work, and you wouldn't hold back good images.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
joeblack2022
THREAD ­ STARTER
Goldmember
3,005 posts
Likes: 5
Joined Sep 2011
Location: The Great White North
     
Mar 28, 2012 16:33 |  #9

Exactly, my intention is to showcase the best not the mediocre... and I mentioned that too when I said I was looking for only 2-3 images each.

There isn't a lot of variety since we packed 6 models (if you count costume changes) into 3.5 hours of shooting and transition time. She told me there were going to be 3 prior to the actual shoot.


Joel

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
RDKirk
Adorama says I'm "packed."
Avatar
12,973 posts
Gallery: 2 photos
Likes: 513
Joined May 2004
Location: USA
     
Mar 28, 2012 17:01 |  #10

The issue changes when you're working with real professionals. I would not have any qualms sharing all the images with other real professionals who will be as critical as I would (even though they might have a different vision).




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
joeblack2022
THREAD ­ STARTER
Goldmember
3,005 posts
Likes: 5
Joined Sep 2011
Location: The Great White North
     
Mar 29, 2012 14:49 |  #11

I think you've hit the nail on the head - I'm not confident that she won't use images I think are not up to par. Some of the photos she uses to advertise seem totally out of place in my opinion.


Joel

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
nathancarter
Cream of the Crop
5,474 posts
Gallery: 32 photos
Best ofs: 1
Likes: 594
Joined Dec 2010
     
Mar 29, 2012 15:18 |  #12

I'd let her see them, if only to maintain a pleasant working relationship.

Let the MUA use the ones she wants in her portfolio, even if you don't think they're the best ones from the shoot. Use the ones YOU think are the best in your own portfolio. She's looking for shots that best show off the makeup and the styling, while you're looking for the ones that best show off the technical and creative proficiency of you as the photographer.

IMO, it's not on your shoulders to decide what the other professional can/should put in her portfolio.

just don't put your watermark on 'em ;)


http://www.avidchick.c​om (external link) for business stuff
http://www.facebook.co​m/VictorVoyeur (external link) for fun stuff

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
joeblack2022
THREAD ­ STARTER
Goldmember
3,005 posts
Likes: 5
Joined Sep 2011
Location: The Great White North
     
Mar 29, 2012 15:46 |  #13

I agree with your thoughts Nathan, I don't want to spoil a potential working relationship either - but I am hesitant to some degree based on potentially having to process images that aren't good enough (for me at least).

I am not trying to dictate what she is going to show in her portfolio but I am trying to prevent unfinished work that originated from me showing up there.

Just to give you some context these are the shots she specifically requested, I've supplied these sans watermarks:
https://photography-on-the.net …/showthread.php​?t=1163385

And these are the some of the others:
https://photography-on-the.net …/showthread.php​?t=1164323


Joel

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Dan ­ Marchant
Do people actually believe in the Title Fairy?
Avatar
5,245 posts
Gallery: 19 photos
Likes: 1543
Joined Oct 2011
Location: Where I'm from is unimportant, it's where I'm going that counts.
     
Mar 30, 2012 03:20 |  #14

joeblack2022 wrote in post #14176564 (external link)
I agree with your thoughts Nathan, I don't want to spoil a potential working relationship either - but I am hesitant to some degree based on potentially having to process images that aren't good enough (for me at least).

The models didn't just pose for the shots they wanted for their portfolio, they also posed for the shots you want (but they may not like). Likewise the MUA did the make-up for all the shots, not just the ones she wants. You obviously shouldn't have to PP all the photos, but doing some that you may not want to use isn't unreasonable in a TF situation. As the above poster points out you both have different needs, so it isn't surprising that you might choose different images.

PS I looked at the images - you did a good job (but a reflector under the chin is a must next time).


Dan Marchant
Website/blog: danmarchant.com (external link)
Instagram: @dan_marchant (external link)
Gear Canon 5DIII + Fuji X-T2 + lenses + a plastic widget I found in the camera box.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
joeblack2022
THREAD ­ STARTER
Goldmember
3,005 posts
Likes: 5
Joined Sep 2011
Location: The Great White North
     
Mar 30, 2012 09:07 |  #15

The "models" were just friends of the MUA who were helping her out as well, they were not looking for any specific shots for a portfolio.

I agree that the MUA will want to use different shots to highlight her work (e.g. headshots she requested) and I don't have an issue with that. I guess her comment about seeing ALL the photos from the shoot set off alarm bells for me, having seen some of the photos she's chosen to use in her advertising. I will definitely be doing PP on more photos than I actually want to use.

Thanks for the feedback Dan, I will definitely add that to the list for next time!


Joel

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

3,629 views & 0 likes for this thread
TFCD shoot - MUA providing models
FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos The Business of Photography 
AAA
x 1600
y 1600

Jump to forum...   •  Rules   •  Index   •  New posts   •  RTAT   •  'Best of'   •  Gallery   •  Gear   •  Reviews   •  Member list   •  Polls   •  Image rules   •  Search   •  Password reset

Not a member yet?
Register to forums
Registered members may log in to forums and access all the features: full search, image upload, follow forums, own gear list and ratings, likes, more forums, private messaging, thread follow, notifications, own gallery, all settings, view hosted photos, own reviews, see more and do more... and all is free. Don't be a stranger - register now and start posting!


COOKIES DISCLAIMER: This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and to our privacy policy.
Privacy policy and cookie usage info.


POWERED BY AMASS forum software 2.1forum software
version 2.1 /
code and design
by Pekka Saarinen ©
for photography-on-the.net

Latest registered member is clauberfm
667 guests, 325 members online
Simultaneous users record so far is 15144, that happened on Nov 22, 2018

Photography-on-the.net Digital Photography Forums is the website for photographers and all who love great photos, camera and post processing techniques, gear talk, discussion and sharing. Professionals, hobbyists, newbies and those who don't even own a camera -- all are welcome regardless of skill, favourite brand, gear, gender or age. Registering and usage is free.