Chuck Westfall avoids answering question about 5D3 RAW ISO noise.

jthomps123 wrote in post #14078002
First of all, this is all just your opinion... so there is no need to 'refute you'. Second of all wasnt the 5D mark 2 CHEAPER THAN THE 5D? All the while increasing IQ and doubling resolution??!?!? So please show me how the 5D 'release cycle' of improvements have come at such a large increase in price until now?

you also understand that there's INFLATION right? the $0.25 bag of chips you were able to get before are all $1 now... Canon is going to pass that costto the consumer... and they are not going to lower their profit margins... unless we all stop buying their products. good luck with that.

RDKirk wrote in post #14078000
From all actual details I've heard and read, Canon relies on select focus groups. There is no indication that they accept spurious inputs.

If they are at a photo fair and gets comments from 500 visitors, they wouldn't see that as spurious inputs.

And the marketing people in all countries spends quite a lot of time on-the-road. They don't care about an individual photographer - but their combined view from all customer contacts they have will make it back.

jacobsen1 wrote in post #14078044
well, first off every single lens release has seen the prices go up. And not even new lenses, the old lenses have all seen pretty large increases over the last few years. So an increase isn't really a shock this time. The 5Dii was ~$2700 at launch, the 5Dc was ~$3?xx, so we're back to where it was in it's day. To get the exact AF the 1Dx has, the best AF they've made (we hope) is something you're going to have to pay for, so combine that with the price hikes of the last 2 years and it shouldn't be a shock. Also, if you do the dollar to yen conversion, apparently it comes out to almost exactly what the 5Dii cost when it came out doing the conversion back then.

so yeah, blame the economy more than anything else IMHO. Yes it's unfortunate, but it's been happening to all photo gear for the last 2 years. Then they added in more features AND they're keeping the 5Dii in the lineup, so it all makes sense when you look at all the factors.

and as for IQ, we haven't seen any/many good DIRECT comparisons between the 5Dii to know about IQ changes. We know JPEGs are better in terms of ISOs, but RAW to RAW, DR, banding, ISOs and detail... We'll see once they hit the street. I myself, even as a landscape shooter, much prefer the 5Diii specs over the D800. I preferred the D700 over the 5Dc and 5Dii though. So finally I have a canon that does what I want.

+1

Combine economic issues and inflationary woes to the fact that the 5D now sports many 1D functions and performance, and you get a $800 price increase over the launch price of the 5D2 and a $200 price increase over the 5Dc launch.

If you don't like the price, just wait. It is GUARANTEED to go down over time.

@JT, As to "it's my opinion" comment, I watched all the comments through the years where people lamented the lack of good AF on the 5D and 5D2 and how much they would spend just for advances in that single area of the 5D. Numbers have been thrown all around that people were willing to pay, so it is not my alone opinion, there are MANY people wanting that AF change and will be willing to pay just for that. Throw in all the other goodies and it makes for an interesting offering.

ilumo wrote in post #14078091
and they are not going to lower their profit margins...

That's what I keep repeating to people. They're (Canon) in the business of making fat wads of cash off selling imaging products. Nothing anyone says changes the fact that Canon is a corporation first and foremost.

jthomps123 wrote in post #14078076
No I cant blame the economy, I gotta blame Canon because their competitors are putting out more for less...

Im fine with the 5d3's shortcomings vs the D800 - im quite disgusted at the price though.

the D800 point is valid. It will be interesting to see who moves which way first. They WILL be priced similarly by 2013 I'd bet. They're basically the same damn camera though, you just trade FPS for MP. But Nikon's lenses are more expensive, so if you price them out system to system the canon setup still costs less. If you factor in a 70-200II or 24-70II though, it might tip back to nikon as those 2 lenses are closing the gap on nikon's pricing. The 24-70II is actually more.

but hey, if you guys just want more MP go buy a D800. No skin off my back. I did the D700 for a year. Great camera with great features. It's basically a 5Dc inside a 1Dii. If canon made it I'd still own it. But trust me, the grass IS NOT always greener. The nikon guys are now crying about how slow the D800 is and that they don't want/need all those pixels if they're only at 4fps... They're now being forced into a crop or D3/D3s/D4 body if they want FPS, that's NOT a cheap alternative...

ilumo wrote in post #14078011
I agree. I use to shoot JPG only, but then after seeing the type of recovery that can be done with RAW, I stuck with that. however, I feel like i'm probably better shooting jpegs on my vacations because I dont like having to store 2000+ 22MP raw files. it's a tad stressful on my HDDs.

Avoid mentally seing it as "recovery". Recovery implies fixing the pudding after it is broken.

The work with curves etc are not recovering from a failure, but the required work to map a larger dynamic range of all modern cameras into the limited dynamci range that can fit in a jpeg image or that can be displayed on an 8-bit monitor. If ignoring that quite a lot of people have only 6-bit-compatible LCD monitors...

In some situations, the scene don't have any interesting details hidden so you get an interesting photo from the top stops. But many scenes can be made much better by making use of these extra stops. And the camera can not know what is artistically best - it can use some standardized curves profile but the shooter can do better. If - of course - the shooter have access to the raw data where the extra stops of goodies are still maintained.

TeamSpeed wrote in post #14078098
If you don't like the price, just wait. It is GUARANTEED to go down over time.

well, that's the interesting thing with this release. I'm hoping they pricematch the D800. If they don't I could see Nikon matching the $3500 honestly saying it's a supply issue. they're already delaying launch while rumor has it canon has TONS of the 5Diii built and ready to go, this will be an interesting launch for both parties. Nikon can blame the flood as it took out their factories AND Sony's (who makes their sensors still right?).

but here's the kicker, canon didn't drop the 5Dii price much over time. Started at $2700 and came down $500 to $2200 only recently? Yes, there were rebates, but those last a month and don't really count for me when talking about MSRP. But canon has already announced a MAP enforcement coming in May. If they do that it might be to keep anyone from discounting the price at all.... I'd bet we won't see the 5Diii for less than $3000 for a solid 3 years unless you go used or refurbished...

Do I HOPE it comes down? Hell yes. But I'm thinking they might keep it up for a solid year or two. Demand will play into this, especially with the 5Dii staying in the lineup. It might sell better than they're thinking -vs- the 5Diii, it might not. It will certainly be interesting to see how many of the complainers about the AF actually put up the cash to switch.

sandpiper wrote in post #14078021
Then go and read Nikon forums, I have heard comments by Nikon users that the D800 has too many Mp and is going to get it's butt kicked in IQ by the 5DIII, so I am sure that there are people over there moaning about how the 5DIII is better, if that will make you feel happier. Otherwise, just stop reading all the doom and gloom threads and wait until the camera comes out. The 5DII attracted all these negative type threads when it was announced. Once it got into people's hands the forum was filled with "just got my 5DII, WOW!" threads as people saw how good it was. I am sure the 5DIII will be the same, once people actually USE one and stop worrying about something they read in an interview, or on a spec sheet.

I did not see any noise complain threads about the 5D2 before people did have it in their hands. It was real users - real owners - who wrote threads describing the issues with the camera.

But the 5DII is not performing as well as Canon claimed it would.

"....did you notice that Chuck mentioned photo journalists and entry level sports photographers"

I think this is really good news for all of us. Clearly the 5D line is now positioned for this market segment, and I am sure there are more than a few wedding photographers out there that are pretty excited as well. The JPEG improvements, MP staying the same, frame rate all support this very well. Nice to see a company with a consistent marketing strategy instead of being all over the place.

With that said, I think it also indicates that a large MP sensor will soon be upon us for the other market that this and the 1DX clearly do not target. The landscape and possibly wildlife photographer segment must be substantial enough to warrant a solution as well. It is hard to imagine Canon will hand that segment to Nikon. There are probably a number of studio photographers that would fit into this segment as well with similar needs. 3D anyone?

For me, upgrading from a 5D was a no brainer as this one camera will probably be ideal for my sports, wildlife, studio portraits, landscape and street photography needs- yes I am all over the place. My 7D may begin gather dust...

jacobsen1 wrote in post #14078126
well, that's the interesting thing with this release. I'm hoping they pricematch the D800. If they don't I could see Nikon matching the $3500 honestly saying it's a supply issue. they're already delaying launch while rumor has it canon has TONS of the 5Diii built and ready to go, this will be an interesting launch for both parties. Nikon can blame the flood as it took out their factories AND Sony's (who makes their sensors still right?).

but here's the kicker, canon didn't drop the 5Dii price much over time. Started at $2700 and came down $500 to $2200 only recently? Yes, there were rebates, but those last a month and don't really count for me when talking about MSRP. But canon has already announced a MAP enforcement coming in May. If they do that it might be to keep anyone from discounting the price at all.... I'd bet we won't see the 5Diii for less than $3000 for a solid 3 years unless you go used or refurbished...

Do I HOPE it comes down? Hell yes. But I'm thinking they might keep it up for a solid year or two. Demand will play into this, especially with the 5Dii staying in the lineup. It might sell better than they're thinking -vs- the 5Diii, it might not. It will certainly be interesting to see how many of the complainers about the AF actually put up the cash to switch.

Sure, I never gave a timeline in my comment, but it will go down... eventually!

(plus diligent use of coupon codes, rebates, cash back, refurb deals, etc all help)

TeamSpeed wrote in post #14078098
Numbers have been thrown all around that people were willing to pay, so it is not my alone opinion, there are MANY people wanting that AF change and will be willing to pay just for that. Throw in all the other goodies and it makes for an interesting offering.

I'm one of the people claiming to be willing to pay more for some of the changes in the 5D3.

In my local currency, the price is 28% higher than the price of the 5D2 when it was introduced. I think it's about 17% higher after compensating for inflation.

And it does add a much valued second memory slot.
And a better (how good unknown) weather sealing.
And a (what it looks like) much better AF.
And I get the frame rate of the 40D.

I can't see much reason to complain about the price change.

I'm holding my thumbs about pattern noise. But even if I still have to suffer that issue, the 5D3 is still a valuable upgrade.

Stuart Leslie wrote in post #14078195
With that said, I think it also indicates that a large MP sensor will soon be upon us for the other market that this and the 1DX clearly do not target.

well, with the 1Dx it has the same details as the 1DsIII and 5Dii, so the new 5Diii is a tad bit better. But I DO agree with you, the 22mp sensor in the 5Diii is a 3:1 downsample ratio for video @ 16:9. If you want the same thing with 4:1 you'd need a ~39mp sensor. Who wants to be they've got that in the works as well. It's a touch "better" than nikon in MP count and is MUCH better for video thanks to the 4:1. It could even be the DSLR aimed at video we see in the next few months, who knows. If it is video specific, what will it look like?

TeamSpeed wrote in post #14078197
Sure, I never gave a timeline in my comment, but it will go down... eventually!

TeamSpeed wrote in post #14078098
@JT, As to "it's my opinion" comment, I watched all the comments through the years where people lamented the lack of good AF on the 5D and 5D2 and how much they would spend just for advances in that single area of the 5D. Numbers have been thrown all around that people were willing to pay, so it is not my alone opinion, there are MANY people wanting that AF change and will be willing to pay just for that. Throw in all the other goodies and it makes for an interesting offering.

People throw around all kinds of hypotheticals when the short-term possibility is moot. I was sure I was going to switch back to Nikon until I sat down and priced out what it would cost me to switch... (more than im willing to sacrifice at this point). What people are hypothetically willing to pay as they throw around wish-lists for a new camera have nothing to do with your assertion that the mk3 is a typically priced 'release cycle'. Its NOT. I would love nothing more than to see Canon lose its a$$ with the 5d3 - although I know it wont happen, because fanboys living in a bubble will buy it without much comparison or forethought. I dont plan to buy it at $3500 unless I get a windfall, and even then i'll still be pissed that Canon is bending me over, and let it be known... rather than take it with a smile on my face.

Like it or not Canon/Nikon doesn't sell cameras in a bubble. After all for the professional – its just a tool, and that professional should always be looking to find the best tool at the best price for their needs.

Us Canon users should be demanding more for our $ from Canon, we should be demanding more DR, more Raw IQ, we should be demanding everything Nikon shooters are getting in their D800, etc. We should NOT be making excuses for their shortcomings... if we do, we are the perfect consumer dolts and will be fed in like.

jthomps123 wrote in post #14078271
People throw around all kinds of hypotheticals when the short-term possibility is moot. I was sure I was going to switch back to Nikon until I sat down and priced out what it would cost me to switch... (more than im willing to sacrifice at this point). What people are hypothetically willing to pay as they throw around wish-lists for a new camera have nothing to do with your assertion that the mk3 is a typically priced 'release cycle'. Its NOT. I would love nothing more than to see Canon lose its a$$ with the 5d3 - although I know it wont happen, because fanboys living in a bubble will buy it without much comparison or forethought. I dont plan to buy it at $3500 unless I get a windfall, and even then i'll still be pissed that Canon is bending me over, and let it be known... rather than take it with a smile on my face.

Like it or not Canon/Nikon doesn't sell cameras in a bubble. After all for the professional – its just a tool, and that professional should always be looking to find the best tool at the best price for their needs.

Us Canon users should be demanding more for our $ from Canon, we should be demanding more DR, more Raw IQ, we should be demanding everything Nikon shooters are getting in their D800, etc. We should NOT be making excuses for their shortcomings... if we do, we are the perfect consumer dolts and will be fed in like.

I have nothing to really say to your always enlightened and upbeat replies other than this quote that I found elsewhere...

jthomps123 wrote in post #14078002
First of all, this is all just your opinion... so there is no need to 'refute you'.

I'm going to interrupt, because I want to go back and re-emphasize that Chuck mentioned journalists and entry level sports photographers. I truly think that's who this camera is marketed to, it was designed for them.

Which leads me to believe that there WILL be a forthcoming portrait/landscape camera. I can't imagine that Canon will leave the 5DIII on the market alone for the next three years and completely ignore my market segment. I only shoot Canon because the 5DII was the perfect portrait camera and the general purpose D700 had no appeal to me.