Chuck Westfall avoids answering question about 5D3 RAW ISO noise.

jthomps123 wrote in post #14078271
[...] because fanboys living in a bubble will buy it without much comparison or forethought.

Interesting view you have of other people. So any buyer of the 5D3 will be a fanboy who buy without much comparison or forethought? Or even a majority of the buyers will?

Interesting. You know about market economies? Customers don't demand. We don't have the right to demand that a manufacturer introduces a specific feature or makes a specific improvement. We may ask for, hope for, beg for. But we can not demand. It's not until we have bought a camera and finds the camera to be broken (explicitly or provably not matching the specifications) where we get in a position where we can demand anything.

So in the end, you just have to settle for voting with your wallet. But don't pretend that you can demand features. That would require that you are either the owner of a very significant percentage of Canon, and as investor puts demans on the company. Or that you are a manager in a very central position, and puts demands on the lower management and the R&D department.

Of course we shouldn't hide our heads in the sand. We should debate. But the only power invested in us is our right to not buy. That is the only (!) right we do have. Unless we have the camera and gets in a warranty situation or the product is significantly misrepresented.

Ricku wrote in post #14076940
From everything I've seen, I'm guessing that the 5D3 has 0.5 stop improvement in raw ISO.

If my guess is correct, then there is no wonder that our dear Chucky didn't answer the question.

You would have to quantify some sort of response, and then do some math(ill omit the details).

Im guessing they designers(for the chip) were given a criteria, and then the analysts in house made some statements about it.

So, you quantify the response, do some math, ask for some certainty, and then say: There IS an improvement.

Which, is no lie.. even a quarter stop improvement is significant. However, if you were then to ask the question: what does the average user want in terms of improvement? and then compare that to what 'we' are willing to do...


They probably used a batch of 1000 sensors, and then took probably 100 shots with each to get their data set. They could do more, but no real reason to...

ahh, i love the maths.

pwm2 wrote in post #14078342
Interesting view you have of other people. So any buyer of the 5D3 will be a fanboy who buy without much comparison or forethought? Or even a majority of the buyers will?


Interesting. You know about market economies? Customers don't demand. We don't have the right to demand that a manufacturer introduces a specific feature or makes a specific improvement. We may ask for, hope for, beg for. But we can not demand. It's not until we have bought a camera and finds the camera to be broken (explicitly or provably not matching the specifications) where we get in a position where we can demand anything.

So in the end, you just have to settle for voting with your wallet. But don't pretend that you can demand features. That would require that you are either the owner of a very significant percentage of Canon, and as investor puts demans on the company. Or that you are a manager in a very central position, and puts demands on the lower management and the R&D department.


Of course we shouldn't hide our heads in the sand. We should debate. But the only power invested in us is our right to not buy. That is the only (!) right we do have. Unless we have the camera and gets in a warranty situation or the product is significantly misrepresented.

BMW 'gave in' to the American demand for a manual transmission in their M5. there were demands, and they were met.


just saying.

As for pre-orders, someone posted that BHPV said the 5diii was at 12,500 and the d800 was at 4500.
That was a few days ago.

pyrojim wrote in post #14078355
BMW 'gave in' to the American demand for a manual transmission in their M5. there were demands, and they were met.


just saying.

Demand may mean two things.

Supply and demand. So customers can have a desire/willingness to buy something. They can vote with their wallets.

And demand as in having the authority to ask for something. A customer does not have the authority to force a manufacturer to do what the manufacturer don't want to.

So in the end, we are still limited to "wanting" things. And deciding where to send our money. But we can not demand something. We can just affect the demand for a product.

bacchanal wrote in post #14077292
Right...when was the last time a camera line improved 2 stops in RAW from one generation to another? Maybe when Nikon went from CCD to CMOS...maybe.

Exactly. I checked out the RAW files from the D3s and the D4 and there's less than a stop difference there as well. Probably more like 1/2 stop. Of course there was a bump in the resolution, but still, I think people are getting over dramatic about things.

Personally, the 5D3 is all about the 61pt pro AF system that was FINALLY added to the 5D line. Just that alone is reason enough for me to celebrate. Add the other INCREMENTAL upgrades and the dual card slots, and I can't wait to get my hands on this thing.

pwm2 wrote in post #14078399
Demand may mean two things.

Supply and demand. So customers can have a desire/willingness to buy something. They can vote with their wallets.

And demand as in having the authority to ask for something. A customer does not have the authority to force a manufacturer to do what the manufacturer don't want to.

So in the end, we are still limited to "wanting" things. And deciding where to send our money. But we can not demand something. We can just affect the demand for a product.

Agreed, and this is what I am doing. I am not buying the 5D3 at this time, but rather will be picking up a used 5D2 at the $1700 price point (hopefully even lower) I called out last year when we discussed what would happen if a 5D3 was to be introduced with improved features. That time has now come...

This means I was a bit quick on the draw when I just bought a 5Dc from FM last week, and should have just waited a bit longer. I may now have a wedding gig here in April and want a FF with a dedicated lens sitting on it for the event, probably the Sigma 50 1.4, and the 24-70 on the 1D4.

pwm2 wrote in post #14078342
Interesting view you have of other people. So any buyer of the 5D3 will be a fanboy who buy without much comparison or forethought? Or even a majority of the buyers will?


Interesting. You know about market economies? Customers don't demand. We don't have the right to demand that a manufacturer introduces a specific feature or makes a specific improvement. We may ask for, hope for, beg for. But we can not demand. It's not until we have bought a camera and finds the camera to be broken (explicitly or provably not matching the specifications) where we get in a position where we can demand anything.

So in the end, you just have to settle for voting with your wallet. But don't pretend that you can demand features. That would require that you are either the owner of a very significant percentage of Canon, and as investor puts demans on the company. Or that you are a manager in a very central position, and puts demands on the lower management and the R&D department.


Of course we shouldn't hide our heads in the sand. We should debate. But the only power invested in us is our right to not buy. That is the only (!) right we do have. Unless we have the camera and gets in a warranty situation or the product is significantly misrepresented.

I thought 'demanding' in this sense would easily be understood as withholding purchase... or 'voting' with your wallet. Did you really think I meant anything but?

pwm2 wrote in post #14077712
Yes, daddy.


Yes, daddy.


How established? How has this data point a higher value than any other data point based on photos of unknown quality from pre-release cameras?


Yes, daddy!

Who's your daddy?

jthomps123 wrote in post #14078445
I thought 'demanding' in this sense would easily be understood as withholding purchase... or 'voting' with your wallet. Did you really think I meant anything but?

At least to me, the grammar of a sentence "Us Canon users should be demanding more for our $ from Canon, [...]" does not sound like a request that we do not buy the cameras, to reduce the demand on them, so Canon needs to change their price if they don't want to keep the cameras.

It most definitely sounds like a "We steel workers demand to get our late salaries payed out now" - i.e. the alternative meaning of "demand" where there is some authority behind the request.

I've never seen such opinionated people!!!!!

Mark II wrote in post #14078658
I've never seen such opinionated people!!!!!

You must be new here?

pwm2 wrote in post #14078520
At least to me, the grammar of a sentence "Us Canon users should be demanding more for our $ from Canon, [...]" does not sound like a request that we do not buy the cameras, to reduce the demand on them, so Canon needs to change their price if they don't want to keep the cameras.

It most definitely sounds like a "We steel workers demand to get our late salaries payed out now" - i.e. the alternative meaning of "demand" where there is some authority behind the request.

I kinda read the comments as "Occupy Canon".

Would make for an interesting group of people, all brandishing various levels of cameras, with banners most likely taken with Canon equipment and printed with Canon printers.

pwm2 wrote in post #14078520
At least to me, the grammar of a sentence "Us Canon users should be demanding more for our $ from Canon, [...]" does not sound like a request that we do not buy the cameras, to reduce the demand on them, so Canon needs to change their price if they don't want to keep the cameras.

It most definitely sounds like a "We steel workers demand to get our late salaries payed out now" - i.e. the alternative meaning of "demand" where there is some authority behind the request.

'demand more for you money' is a common concept in the US. Competitors actually use it against each other in marketing and advertising. My fault for believing it was a universal consumer concept – yes it was to suggest we Canon users should vote with out wallet and send Canon a message that paying more for less is unacceptable.

Ivann wrote in post #14076446
Who cares about jpeg improvement?

People, like me, who shoot in both RAW and Jpeg when shooting events.

I'd never shoot an event in Jpeg only, but I also don't want to process every single image if I can help it, even with batch processing.

When I open the folder and have the jpegs separated from the RAW files, I like to just drag away the Jpegs that are good to a separate folder as keepers.

Then I go back and check the rest in RAW to see if they can be saved.

A customer (which I don't have...I currently just do events for friends) isn't going to care about anything other than nice pictures, which can be done in either Jpeg or RAW.

BUT: I didn't know that was a huge focal point of this new camera. From everything I read over the last three (really seven) years it was about autofocus. I don't remember reading much about ISO noise, Megapixels, or image quality in general. People were just bugged about inferior autofocus with the classic and mark 2.

Besides, two stop improvement in ISO noise Jpeg can be done by anyone if willing to sacrifice detail. Heck, I can get rid of noise in any photo, but it might be the most blurry photo ever. So the point of the OP is valid, but who was expecting better RAW performance? A newer processor can't necessarily handle noise all that much better.

Gots to go medium format to make a huge jump in ISO performance (in my opinion). When you look at photography from a certain perspective, the 5D mark III is an inexpensive camera. To those who regulary use medium format, the 5D series is to them like a point and shoot is to me.