Composition and all that Arty stuff - discussion thread.

And I am not concerned with the obvious. I'm more of a subtle guy, I want my work to be as much about the backgrounds and relating/repeating shapes, leading lines and other visual elements as the subject and in complete support of the subject. A great photographer once told me and it is something I strive for in both my vision and in my work:

Either everything in the frame is supporting the photograph and if it's not supporting the photograph then those elements are hurting it.

To me that means line, leading lines, shape, tone, and other visual elements need to be working together. I look for this not only in my work but the work of others. I also like to look at images and be surprised. Sometimes finding those elements that I didn't notice immediately. Those things are in most good work.

One thing that Bresson said that I really agree with is this:
"By form, I mean the rigorous organisation of the interplay of surfaces, lines and values. It is in this organisation alone that our conceptions and emotions become concrete and communicable. In photography, visual organisation can stem only from a developed instinct." - Henri Cartier-Bresson

Developing that instinct should be a preoccupation and it should be an ongoing journey.

Where do you get that Joe. I was stating why I think that image is more than a snapshot.

Also if you understand what Bresson was referring to is the more you practice it the more it becomes second nature and you see it all come together in a fraction of a second and that type of vision is true of all the great street photographers and it takes work. You usually don't have time to stand there for 5 minutes but sometimes when you find the right background you can wait for something to happen in it. Sometimes you wait and nothing happens and sometimes the elements all work. The point is you have to develop your vision to a point where you recognize it when it does happen and it happens in a fraction of a second. Thats the appeal to many like me is you have to see it in real time as it's happening and then have the skill to capture it. But the problem Joe is that all great images have these elements. It's what separates them from all those that don't have it.

Where did your post go?

I think there is a difference between understanding what you are doing and liking the image Allen.

I understand what you are doing and I find the image is a good example of the content in the image being deliberate.

Whether I like the image is another matter.

Compositionally, it is a very intelligent image.

Exactly Mark. A snapshot wouldn't be deliberate.

And back to this from #2220
"I am not seeing the leading lines (vague and subtle) until of course you paint big yellow arrows and I've been rather serious about photography for a while now. I can only imagine how lost a beginner is in seeing what you are seeing."

Just goes to show Joe you shouldn't dismiss without digging a little deeper. Just because you didn't see it at first, as you can see, doesn't mean it isn't there and the bigger question would be shouldn't you have seen it? And that is what Bresson is talking about when he speaks of that developed instinct. Would Frank have created "The Americans" worried about playing to beginners?

How are we ever going to progress beyond the obvious if we don't push our vision and ourselves to see and demand more in our work and the work of others.

"A good photograph, like a good painting, speaks with a loud voice and demands time and attention if it is to be fully perceived. An art lover is perfectly willing to hang a painting on a wall for years on end, but ask him to study a single photograph for ten unbroken minutes and he’ll think it’s a waste of time. Staying power is difficult to build into a photograph. Mostly, it takes content. A good photograph can penetrate the subconscious – but only if it is allowed to speak for however much time it needs to get there." - Ralph Gibson

OhLook wrote in post #16578395
Image removed.

Oh Look bring it back along with the other one

I think the key point is in this discussion is intentionality Allen.

The moment you take an image which is intentional and balanced compositionally it moves it out of the realm of snapshot.

An intentional image is not a snapshot by very definition.

mtimber wrote in post #16582033
I think the key point is in this discussion is intentionality Allen.

The moment you take an image which is intentional and balanced compositionally it moves it out of the realm of snapshot.

An intentional image is not a snapshot by very definition.

Agree totally.

Regardless of one's opinion of a particular photograph, doesn't it follow that a photo in a thread named "Composition and all that Arty stuff" might be there simply to illustrate or test a compositional or artistic element, regardless of the ability of that photo to stand up under a different type of scrutiny?
It's when I see a photo in this thread that I don't "get," or that seems "ordinary" to me, that I am inspired to find the reason(s) for it to be posted here.
I think I'm paraphrasing an earlier post of Allen's when I say this, but the more we study the compositional elements that are repeatedly displayed here, the more aware we become of those elements in our own work.
It's good to "see" you all again. Hope you all had great holidays.

airfrogusmc wrote in post #16581743
Oh Look bring it back along with the other one

Ho-kaaay. I presume you have a reason for making that request. I deleted it here because talking about the same image in different threads makes for a fragmented discussion.

IMAGE LINK: http://s641.photobucke​t.com …1414_zps70961cb​0.jpg.html

IMAGE LINK: http://s641.photobucke​t.com …1414_zps2a81c6e​8.jpg.html

I was saying over there in the other that I thought these two work really well together. Theres some interesting things going on with the two primary colors yellow and red. I think the handles bars on the left and the back of the bike on the right make an interesting juxtaposition. You've got that as you were saying that suggested circle on the handle bar shot and the actual circle of the back wheel in the other. Thanks for reposting....

I like these both especially together.

A snapshot is just as deliberate as a well composed artistic shot. Deliberation is the act of engaging a shutter. What you are addressing is visual awareness and traditional composition tools to create an engaging image or an image which holds interest. I don't want to analyze an image to find value until I spend some time taking it in organically, without mind, without training. If the image does not appeal to me all the composition tools in the world will not save it.

Matt M. wrote in post #16582144
Regardless of one's opinion of a particular photograph, doesn't it follow that a photo in a thread named "Composition and all that Arty stuff" might be there simply to illustrate or test a compositional or artistic element, regardless of the ability of that photo to stand up under a different type of scrutiny?
It's when I see a photo in this thread that I don't "get," or that seems "ordinary" to me, that I am inspired to find the reason(s) for it to be posted here.
I think I'm paraphrasing an earlier post of Allen's when I say this, but the more we study the compositional elements that are repeatedly displayed here, the more aware we become of those elements in our own work.
It's good to "see" you all again. Hope you all had great holidays.

yeah good to see you to... I think these are the discussions that are important. There are far to few of these around. Ya ca't swing a dead cat and not hit a thread about the technical aspects but the harder and more important aspects like intent and how the elements support that are really not discusses much.

I know how important real critiques about these things were to me when I was in college. We not only discussed our work in those classes, every week for each class, we would also look at and discuss the works of the greats to see how importnat it all was and to see if we could see it in their work. We did this in art history classes to with painting and other two and three dimensional work.

Now I am very lucky to have one of my professors from college (retired now) and some other amazing photographers ( also a few others that have taught) in a group that gets together every few months to critique new work and really discuss our current and future directions.

They more you look at work and discuss these things the more fluent you become. The more this stuff becomes part of your work on very deep level and your visual vocabulary.

I think threads like this and real open discussions about the work are important. Sontag talks about the fact back in the 1970s there was so little real discussion about content and intent in her book On Photography.

"What reinforces the content of a photograph is the sense of rhythm – the relationship between shapes and values." - Henri Cartier-Bresson

"To take photographs means to recognize -- simultaneously and within a fraction of a second -- both the fact itself and the rigorous organization of visually perceived forms that give it meaning. It is putting one's head, one's eye and one's heart on the same axis." - Henri Cartier-Bresson

Great insight as to why some work on the street. Certainly one reason I do. Great movie also. Worth the $13 for sure.
http://www.traileraddi​ct.com …/everybody-street/trailer

jetcode wrote in post #16582479
A snapshot is just as deliberate as a well composed artistic shot. Deliberation is the act of engaging a shutter. What you are addressing is visual awareness and traditional composition tools to create an engaging image or an image which holds interest. I don't want to analyze an image to find value until I spend some time taking it in organically, without mind, without training. If the image does not appeal to me all the composition tools in the world will not save it.

Ok so you don't want to look beyond the obvious. Thats cool but there is a big world outside the cave as Plato discussed (Platos Cave). We have 2000 years of 2 dimensional history to draw from. To not draw from history is to deny things that might bring more meaning to art and life.

Many greats weren't formally trained but they all were fluent. How do we know this? It's in their work.

Adams was so called self taught but he loved art and some of his best and closest friends were some of the greatest artists of the 20th century.

And the definition of snapshot:
(Photography) an informal photograph taken with a simple camera. Often shortened to: snap

jetcode wrote in post #16582479
A snapshot is just as deliberate as a well composed artistic shot. Deliberation is the act of engaging a shutter. What you are addressing is visual awareness and traditional composition tools to create an engaging image or an image which holds interest. I don't want to analyze an image to find value until I spend some time taking it in organically, without mind, without training. If the image does not appeal to me all the composition tools in the world will not save it.

I think you are confusing your emotional reaction or lack of reaction to Allens image with the idea it is a snapshot.

Because you do not see any artistic merit in it, you are classifying it as a snapshot.

You would be better saying it is a well composed image but lacks any emotional content from your own subjective point of view.

The thing I really like about Allens image is that it makes other photographers think.

Learning to find and anticipate events is an important skill because it can be easy to be tricked into thinking that all images are just "snapshots".

The image being discussed is a classic example of that.

Think about the great wildlife pictures, they are not images that someone just captured wandering around in the great outdoors.

They are images that took careful observation and planning learnt over years of practice.

The observation of light and composition comes before capturing the moment, so in the image we are discussing, we can see those principles in action.

Allen observed the light, chose his composition and then captured the moment. That moment wouldn't have been captured without the first two steps.

That alone should lift the image above snapshot status.

There is a lot to be learnt in this image.