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Thread started 04 Apr 2012 (Wednesday) 08:26
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Composition and all that Arty stuff - discussion thread.

 
sjones
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Apr 19, 2012 12:26 |  #331

nicksan wrote in post #14292302 (external link)
...I thought Jazz was the superior music form and everything else was garbage...

Sounds like a friend I knew who was indoctrinated to deify jazz while studying at Boston's Berklee College of Music. We tried to de-brain wash him---sure, he wasn't ever going to respect the likes of Led Zeppelin, never mind the Sex Pistols, but we hoped that we could at least get him to stop looking down on Beethoven and Mozart. Actually, he softened up later.


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sjones
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Apr 19, 2012 12:29 as a reply to  @ sjones's post |  #332

To me, understanding the language is not really a matter of learning rules, per se, but, as noted several times, a process more akin to osmosis. The underlying process in many ways deals more with the subconscious, and it largely exists to assists more so than dictate pre-visualization.

I react viscerally, and often times, it has to be quick, particularly with street photography, whereby the various moving elements (including myself, as I am usually still walking while clicking the shutter) come together visually for only a second or so. As such, any cognitive factor is best served when it becomes second nature.

What I react to now, however natural it might seem, has changed in relation to what caught my attention when I first started; certainly, I view light in a different way, whether with camera in hand or not. Some of this change can likely be attributed to examining the works of others, which, if nothing else, can also serve as a quick jolt of inspiration.

Again, this is not a simple matter of outright copying or memorizing a list of edicts. Besides, even if I didn't analyze anyone's works, I would still be looking at it intently for no other reason than that I derive great pleasure from viewing other folks' photos, not unlike my enjoyment of reading books, watching movies, or listening to music. And since I find enjoyment at looking beyond the surface, I don't necessarily consider the process a purely pedagogical approach, however informative it might hopefully be.

And absolutely, I do all of this at my own pace, and I do it on my own---like I noted before, I am in this for the enjoyment, and I've always been somewhat resistant to structured education, as helpful as it can be.

The bottom-line is that while I am not out to enforce a method, I would not want to aver that reviewing others' work is automatically detrimental to developing a personal or unique style, on the contrary.


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nicksan
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Apr 19, 2012 12:35 |  #333

sjones wrote in post #14293169 (external link)
Sounds like a friend I knew who was indoctrinated to deify jazz while studying at Boston's Berklee College of Music. We tried to de-brain wash him---sure, he wasn't ever going to respect the likes of Led Zeppelin, never mind the Sex Pistols, but we hoped that we could at least get him to stop looking down on Beethoven and Mozart. Actually, he softened up later.

I no longer take a hard stance on Jazz music that way. If you enjoy whatever it is that you are listening to, that's the most important thing. Hey, when I am shooting weddings, I actually enjoy some of the music almost rupturing my ear drums during the reception, so there you go. :lol:

For example, I hate Kenny G. But he's good at what he does. Making music I absolutely despise. And oh yeah, he's a wealthy man too. More power to him. :)

IMO, there are different set of challenges for different genres of music. I still like Rock, but theoretically speaking, it's a much more simplistic genre than Jazz. That doesn't make it inferior. Not at all. But I think you would agree that Jazz is more complex. Same thing with the Blues. Theoretically it's extremely simple. But of course it goes beyond that. There are some Blues guitar players that make me go "Daym", like Stevie Ray Vaughn for instance. Even someone like John Meyer is very talented.




  
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nicksan
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Apr 19, 2012 12:37 |  #334

sjones, it seems like you and I are on the same page. :)

Actually, I think most of us are on the same page. We just go about describing in a vastly different way!




  
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airfrogusmc
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Apr 19, 2012 12:57 |  #335

nicksan wrote in post #14293217 (external link)
sjones, it seems like you and I are on the same page. :)

Actually, I think most of us are on the same page. We just go about describing in a vastly different way!

The beauty of the internet :lol:

I think a real learning experience is when you are in a room with a group of other photographers and you are all actually critiquing work and while you are critiquing everyone is looking for pieces of understanding in the work using visual language to help in understanding and if its there or not will usually come out and that can be a powerful learning experience and another thing that does translate well to the internet.




  
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sjones
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Apr 19, 2012 13:29 |  #336

nicksan wrote in post #14293210 (external link)
I no longer take a hard stance on Jazz music that way. If you enjoy whatever it is that you are listening to, that's the most important thing. Hey, when I am shooting weddings, I actually enjoy some of the music almost rupturing my ear drums during the reception, so there you go. :lol:

For example, I hate Kenny G. But he's good at what he does. Making music I absolutely despise. And oh yeah, he's a wealthy man too. More power to him. :)

IMO, there are different set of challenges for different genres of music. I still like Rock, but theoretically speaking, it's a much more simplistic genre than Jazz. That doesn't make it inferior. Not at all. But I think you would agree that Jazz is more complex. Same thing with the Blues. Theoretically it's extremely simple. But of course it goes beyond that. There are some Blues guitar players that make me go "Daym", like Stevie Ray Vaughn for instance. Even someone like John Meyer is very talented.

Jazz is definitely more complicated than rock, and it was this sophistication, particularly the improvisational aspect of jazz, that prompted my friend's condescension to even classical music. And even I would contend that jazz is perhaps one of America's greatest cultural contributions to the world.

I used to drum in indie/punk bands, pretty much four-four beat and straightforward. Sure, I liked (and still do) Joni Mitchell, Bob Marley, Beethoven, Johnny Cash, and various other forms of music, but when it came to playing, I pretty much preferred fast, loud, and simple.

In several ways, I've carried over this philosophy to photography, that is, that the good can certainly arise from the simple, and that technical difficulty is not, for me, a mandatory measure for defining great photography.

This said, I have greatly admired certain jazz drummers, doing things that were a million light years beyond my capability. Likewise, I can appreciate the technical skills involved in producing certain types of photography, even if I don't have a personal interests in producing such types of photographs. And when I think about the printer in the darkroom, improvising with chemicals and other makeshift methods to manipulate tones, I suppose there was an element of jazz to such craft.

Anyway, I was (and perhaps on some level, still am) a music snob in my own way, going through high school and college hating most commercial pop and for that matter, Kenny G. But yes, as I've gotten older, it's more of a "whatever," it's only music. After all, every generation needs their Justin Bieber teenybopper. I might not like it, but it's no longer a reason to rebel…too much.


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Ricardo222
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Apr 19, 2012 16:17 |  #337

nicksan wrote in post #14293210 (external link)
I no longer take a hard stance on Jazz music that way. If you enjoy whatever it is that you are listening to, that's the most important thing. Hey, when I am shooting weddings, I actually enjoy some of the music almost rupturing my ear drums during the reception, so there you go. :lol:

For example, I hate Kenny G. But he's good at what he does. Making music I absolutely despise. And oh yeah, he's a wealthy man too. More power to him. :)

IMO, there are different set of challenges for different genres of music. I still like Rock, but theoretically speaking, it's a much more simplistic genre than Jazz. That doesn't make it inferior. Not at all. But I think you would agree that Jazz is more complex. Same thing with the Blues. Theoretically it's extremely simple. But of course it goes beyond that. There are some Blues guitar players that make me go "Daym", like Stevie Ray Vaughn for instance. Even someone like John Meyer is very talented.

Thank you for your story about how you came to give up making music, Nick. I wonder how many people found that story resonated with them...I know there were aspects of it that hit home for me.

My knowledge of jazz is meagre but I love some of the modern American music...Patricia Barber, Charlie Haden, Kenny Barron amongst others...(NOT Kenny G!!) To me it's wonderful to know that such music is still being created.

nicksan wrote in post #14293217 (external link)
sjones, it seems like you and I are on the same page. :)

Actually, I think most of us are on the same page. We just go about describing in a vastly different way!

And this is the best thing about this forum. Sometimes it's reassuring to hear that other people share their predilictions and uncertainties.


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nicksan
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Apr 19, 2012 16:56 |  #338

Ricardo222 wrote in post #14294391 (external link)
Thank you for your story about how you came to give up making music, Nick. I wonder how many people found that story resonated with them...I know there were aspects of it that hit home for me.

My knowledge of jazz is meagre but I love some of the modern American music...Patricia Barber, Charlie Haden, Kenny Barron amongst others...(NOT Kenny G!!) To me it's wonderful to know that such music is still being created.

Yeah, I don't want to come off as this deep thinking former musician b/c that's the furthest from the truth. I've lightened up considerably since those times! Do I think that my musical background helps me in photography? Perhaps. But I've always been creative so I don't know. It definitely helps me with regards to how NOT TO approach photography. So it's been 6 years since I picked up photography in any serious fashion, and I am as invigorated with it as much as I was when I first picked up the DSLR. And I just don't see that changing thanks to the approach I am taking, which is an extremely personal and deliberate choice I made because I know how my brain is specifically wired. YMMV...by a lot.

I don't listen to much recent stuff with Jazz. I stopped. Musicians I like, aside from the obvious (Miles, Coltrane, Monk, etc) would be people like David Holland, Keith Jarrett, Kenny Garrett, Kurt Rosenwinkel, John Scofield, etc, etc. I've been listening to a Keith Jarrett album on my iPhone during my commute for the last year or so. Oh, and sure, I'll listen to some of the stuff I used to listen to back in the 80's, you know, like a Metallica album, for example. No joke. I really do...and I dig it! :lol:




  
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airfrogusmc
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Apr 19, 2012 17:09 |  #339

nicksan wrote in post #14294613 (external link)
Yeah, I don't want to come off as this deep thinking former musician b/c that's the furthest from the truth. I've lightened up considerably since those times! Do I think that my musical background helps me in photography? Perhaps. But I've always been creative so I don't know. It definitely helps me with regards to how NOT TO approach photography. So it's been 6 years since I picked up photography in any serious fashion, and I am as invigorated with it as much as I was when I first picked up the DSLR. And I just don't see that changing thanks to the approach I am taking, which is an extremely personal and deliberate choice I made because I know how my brain is specifically wired. YMMV...by a lot.

I don't listen to much recent stuff with Jazz. I stopped. Musicians I like, aside from the obvious (Miles, Coltrane, Monk, etc) would be people like David Holland, Keith Jarrett, Kenny Garrett, Kurt Rosenwinkel, John Scofield, etc, etc. I've been listening to a Keith Jarrett album on my iPhone during my commute for the last year or so. Oh, and sure, I'll listen to some of the stuff I used to listen to back in the 80's, you know, like a Metallica album, for example. No joke. I really do...and I dig it! :lol:

I listen to everything form the Stoogies, MC5, Ramones, Patti Smith to Beethoven, Bach to Coltrane Davis, Janes Addiction, Zep, Albert King, varity is the spice and the neighbors think I'm nuts and the really interesting thing is most creative activity is kinda related and comes from the same part of the brain (right).I find inspiration in all kinds of places. Painting, literature, music, motion pictures because ya never know where the spark will come from.




  
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nicksan
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Apr 19, 2012 17:10 |  #340

airfrogusmc wrote in post #14294683 (external link)
I listen to everything form the Stoogies, MC5, Ramones, Patti Smith to Beethoven, Bach to Coltrane Davis, Janes Addiction, Zep, Albert King, varity is the spice and the neighbors think I'm nuts and the really interesting thing is most creative activity is kinda related and comes from the same part of the brain (right).I find inspiration in all kinds of places. Painting, literature, music, motion pictures because ya never know where the spark will come from.

You forgot inspiration from new gear acquisition! :lol:;)




  
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Apr 19, 2012 17:17 |  #341

nicksan wrote in post #14294613 (external link)
Yeah, I don't want to come off as this deep thinking former musician b/c that's the furthest from the truth. I've lightened up considerably since those times! Do I think that my musical background helps me in photography? Perhaps. But I've always been creative so I don't know. It definitely helps me with regards to how NOT TO approach photography. So it's been 6 years since I picked up photography in any serious fashion, and I am as invigorated with it as much as I was when I first picked up the DSLR. And I just don't see that changing thanks to the approach I am taking, which is an extremely personal and deliberate choice I made because I know how my brain is specifically wired. YMMV...by a lot.

I don't listen to much recent stuff with Jazz. I stopped. Musicians I like, aside from the obvious (Miles, Coltrane, Monk, etc) would be people like David Holland, Keith Jarrett, Kenny Garrett, Kurt Rosenwinkel, John Scofield, etc, etc. I've been listening to a Keith Jarrett album on my iPhone during my commute for the last year or so. Oh, and sure, I'll listen to some of the stuff I used to listen to back in the 80's, you know, like a Metallica album, for example. No joke. I really do...and I dig it! :lol:

And Roger Waters brought "The Wall" to New Zealand in February! We went up to see it and loved every moment! You should have seen the crowd...twelve thousand old spooks like me reliving their youth! Actually, there were an encouraging number of young folks as well, but the over-all impression was one of, shall we say, a mature audience! Erk...I hate that word!


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airfrogusmc
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Apr 19, 2012 17:24 |  #342

nicksan wrote in post #14294695 (external link)
You forgot inspiration from new gear acquisition! :lol:;)

Sorry. Its so shallow I know but when I get new stuff it always gets me out shooting for myself. :rolleyes::lol:




  
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airfrogusmc
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Apr 19, 2012 17:29 |  #343

Ricardo222 wrote in post #14294707 (external link)
And Roger Waters brought "The Wall" to New Zealand in February! We went up to see it and loved every moment! You should have seen the crowd...twelve thousand old spooks like me reliving their youth! Actually, there were an encouraging number of young folks as well, but the over-all impression was one of, shall we say, a mature audience! Erk...I hate that word!

Very cool.. Meddle is maybe one of my top ten desert island picks and I so like the Wall as a record. I went to see two Who a few years back and it was, dare I say, an older crowd. Kinda sad without the killer rhythm section and the Boss a few years back but the 4 hour show like in the early days was long gone.




  
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Apr 20, 2012 01:09 |  #344

Heh! Now you guys are getting started in "fun" music! Gosh, where do ya go for that? Metallica? I really didn't pay attention to them in their early days, because "pure speed metal" just doesn't appeal to me, but when the black album came out, wow I thought...

Nirvana was another band I was slow to appreciate, but in time...

But yeah, Pink Floyd -- I became kind of a PF junkie, saw them in the '90s in Vancouver BC...

Interesting that I saw the Who in their Tommy tour in one of the first rock "stadium" events in Anaheim, CA. I enjoyed them more in their early days, though...

And then it was a blast rocking with Neil Young and Pearl Jam performing together...


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Apr 20, 2012 06:52 |  #345

Here is one, totally candid, but captured the moment quite well.

I like to capture the "spirit" of a person when taking candid portraits.

Those are the images I really enjoy.

Not a big fan of posed images, but you have to do what you have to do sometimes...

Background lets it down though.

IMAGE NOT FOUND
HTTP response: NOT FOUND | MIME changed to 'image/gif' | Redirected to error image by FLICKR

the balloon string.jpg (external link) by mtimber1971 (external link), on Flickr

"You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you" (Belmondo)

  
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