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Thread started 20 Apr 2012 (Friday) 23:14
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Serious concerns about the trend in Canon sensor technology...trend to nowhere?

 
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jrista
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Apr 20, 2012 23:14 |  #1

I recently finished reading the DxO review for the 5D Mark III. While I am not a huge DxO fan, and I take their results with a grain of salt, I do pay attention to their numbers. I was willing to be rather forgiving of Canon for not producing a better sensor in the 5D III (and I suspect we'll see similar results with the 1D X), as they offered so many other enhancements beyond IQ.

However after seeing the results all over the web (not just at DxO) for the 5D III, and checking the raw numbers at sensorgen.info, I am rather concerned about the trend in Canon sensor technology (particularly given the increases in cost...a $700 difference in price is really rather shocking). For all their talk, Canon seems to have barely managed to maintain the status quo, and has taken a rather alarming step backwards in terms of low ISO read noise (according to sensorgen data, a whopping 20% step back!) I awaited the 5D III with baited breath, and while I was ecstatic about the AF, VF, and host of other physical improvements, I decided to wait and see if Canon announced their own high-MP camera with better IQ. For my landscape work, more megapixels and higher DR will really do wonders. However therein lies my concern... Will Canon release a high MP pro DSLR that has the same horrid low-ISO read noise as the 5D III? What about other future Canon cameras...the 1Ds X? The 7D II? The 5D IV or perhaps a 3D?

I'm thoroughly invested in Canon lenses, and as such, I'm pretty much a Canon guy. I like my gear, and love the innovation Canon puts into its lenses. I love the fact that they have some very unique optical technology like the MP-E 65mm 1-5x Zoom Macro, TS-E lenses, Diffractive Optics in small, lightweight packages, and the stellar quality and nanocoating of L-series glass. But a 20% step backwards in terms of low ISO read noise in what is supposed to be the top of the line pinnacle of Canon sensor technology...is completely unacceptable to me. Its great to make improvements to a sensor, but not at the cost of performance elsewhere...trade-offs don't make for good sales pitches when the competition is making headway on every front, and I've reached the end of my available rope for leeway and forgiveness. Canon really needs to get on the ball and COMPETE with the competition, and produce something that at the very least is on-par with what Sony Exmor sensors and Nikon DSLR's are offering. Remaining stuck at approximately 11.5 stops of maximum theoretical DR (read that as limited shadow recovery...a critical factor in photographing landscapes at sunrise or sunset) and increasing read noise with each successive generation of a camera is just plain and simply unacceptable, from an otherwise avid Canon customer's standpoint.

Remaining on this path will LITERALLY make me move my landscape photography to the Nikon D800e and a 14-24mm lens. It is certainly not something I want to do...I have nothing against Nikon, but I don't really like having to double my expenses and use two different products for the same general thing. I would much prefer to stick with Canon for 100% of my photography, but landscapes bleed extensive dynamic range, even with GND filters. Nikon and Sony have directly addressed this problem, and at a cheaper price point to boot...thats a very difficult thing to stick ones nose up at, especially when things seem to be moving in the opposite direction for your chosen, preferred brand.

So here is a heartfelt plea to Canon from a vested user: Please put some serious effort into addressing low ISO performance, and find some way to eliminate read noise. Please stop finding ways to "cheat" the system (i.e. using more translucent red and blue color filters in your bayer CFA to increase signal...thats just a copout, and you can do better! :mad:) Some measurable, meaningful improvements in the categories of dynamic range and read noise are an essential requirement for my continued patronage of Canon. I'll probably always stick with this brand for my action work, I'm too thoroughly invested in Canon telephoto lenses, batteries, and accessory gear to switch, and high ISO performance doesn't seem to be a problem. But I can't limit the bounds of my photography and creativity on a matter of principle or the desire for convenience, and improvements to dynamic range and read noise were, ultimately...despite all the other shiny new features in the 5D III...my primary deciding factor regarding whether to buy one or not.

So please, stop the half measures and simple tricks to barely scrape by and maintain the status quo. Put some real, honest, dedicated effort and innovation behind your next sensors. Make some recognizable improvements (particularly, eliminate as much read noise as possible...fixed pattern noise visible in the low midtones or making shadows entirely unrecoverable is just no longer acceptable when its been demonstrated by the competition that FPN can be eliminated.) Give me a really good reason to keep talking up Canon as an excellent brand for any and every kind of photography, and stick with it myself for all of my own photography. And do it soon...I've waited three years for the 5D III, which is exciting in many respects...but in all honesty a let-down in terms of overall IQ, enough so that I've decided to hold off on purchasing the thing I've waited so long to buy. :cry:


Cameras: Canon 7D | Canon 450D
Lenses: EF 16-35mm f/2.8 L II | EF 50mm f1.4 | EF 100mm f/2.8 | EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 L | EF 400mm f/2.8 L | TS-E 24mm f/3.5 L | EF-S 10-22mm | EF 1.4x TC III
Gear: Zeikos ZE-CBG7D, RainbowImaging Wireless LCD Timer Remote Control for EOS, 430EX II x2

  
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THE ­ Phreak
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Apr 20, 2012 23:16 |  #2

Well, if someone gave me a 5D3 I wouldn't complain.


1D classic | 50mm 1.8 | 28-105 3.5-4.5 | 270ex flash

  
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photophilth
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Apr 20, 2012 23:18 |  #3

that's a knarly first post




  
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jrista
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Apr 20, 2012 23:23 |  #4

THE Phreak wrote in post #14301633 (external link)
Well, if someone gave me a 5D3 I wouldn't complain.

Well, if I was given one, I wouldn't complain either. ;)

But seeing as I needed one for landscape work, and it costs at least $500 more than I expected it to, and the competition handily outperforms it on almost every level for the price I DID expect...I have a really hard time buying one myself with my own hard-earned cash.


Cameras: Canon 7D | Canon 450D
Lenses: EF 16-35mm f/2.8 L II | EF 50mm f1.4 | EF 100mm f/2.8 | EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 L | EF 400mm f/2.8 L | TS-E 24mm f/3.5 L | EF-S 10-22mm | EF 1.4x TC III
Gear: Zeikos ZE-CBG7D, RainbowImaging Wireless LCD Timer Remote Control for EOS, 430EX II x2

  
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DarthVader
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Apr 20, 2012 23:26 |  #5

Did you just graduated from dpreview.com ? :).


Nikon/Fuji.
Gear is important but skills are very important :)

  
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jrista
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Apr 20, 2012 23:27 |  #6

photophilth wrote in post #14301638 (external link)
that's a knarly first post

Probably...but I don't think I'm alone in the sentiment, and discussing the issues on other, non-official Canon forums isn't a good way to get Canon's attention on the subject.

I AM a Canon fan, but the discrepancy and price points between Canon and the competition is just too large to leave concerns unspoken. I don't know if Canon reps read this forum, or if they do if they even take customer concerns voiced here into account. If there is a more appropriate forum that will get the attention of the right Canon people, I'd love to know it.


Cameras: Canon 7D | Canon 450D
Lenses: EF 16-35mm f/2.8 L II | EF 50mm f1.4 | EF 100mm f/2.8 | EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 L | EF 400mm f/2.8 L | TS-E 24mm f/3.5 L | EF-S 10-22mm | EF 1.4x TC III
Gear: Zeikos ZE-CBG7D, RainbowImaging Wireless LCD Timer Remote Control for EOS, 430EX II x2

  
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jrista
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Apr 20, 2012 23:31 |  #7

DarthVader wrote in post #14301660 (external link)
Did you just graduated from dpreview.com ? :).

Not entirely sure what that means, but I'm pretty sure my answer is no. I read dpreview official reviews, but I avoid their forums...total, mind-racking chaos. I poke around with RAW data on my own...its not difficult to compute dynamic range or examine FPN in a dark frame. I've ignored all the crazy talk about how the 5D III sensor is pretty much the same as its predecessor with some slight SNR improvements at high ISO until today (now that some official results are out, its kind of hard to ignore.)


Cameras: Canon 7D | Canon 450D
Lenses: EF 16-35mm f/2.8 L II | EF 50mm f1.4 | EF 100mm f/2.8 | EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 L | EF 400mm f/2.8 L | TS-E 24mm f/3.5 L | EF-S 10-22mm | EF 1.4x TC III
Gear: Zeikos ZE-CBG7D, RainbowImaging Wireless LCD Timer Remote Control for EOS, 430EX II x2

  
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DarthVader
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Apr 20, 2012 23:39 |  #8

The problem is because you are a FAN. If you go to restaurant and you don't like their food would you comeback ?. There is no such thing as too much invested as far as gear concern. You, the customer decides what's best for yourself. As far as your plea to Canon, not sure if they read POTN :).

jrista wrote in post #14301676 (external link)
Not entirely sure what that means, but I'm pretty sure my answer is no. I read dpreview official reviews, but I avoid their forums...total, mind-racking chaos. I poke around with RAW data on my own...its not difficult to compute dynamic range or examine FPN in a dark frame. I've ignored all the crazy talk about how the 5D III sensor is pretty much the same as its predecessor with some slight SNR improvements at high ISO until today (now that some official results are out, its kind of hard to ignore.)


Nikon/Fuji.
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jrista
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Apr 20, 2012 23:43 |  #9

DarthVader wrote in post #14301707 (external link)
The problem is because you are a FAN. If you go to restaurant and you don't like their food would you comeback ?. There is no such thing as too much invested as far as gear concern. You, the customer decides what's best for yourself.

Well, when thousands of dollars of potential new gear are needed to add Nikon to my kit...I just feel like I'm in a bit of a bind. :P

DarthVader wrote in post #14301707 (external link)
As far as your plea to Canon, not sure if they read POTN :).

So by that, I'm guessing these are not directly affiliated with Canon? I managed to get here from an official Canon page...I guess I figured this was a Canon forum given that it said "Canon Digital Photography Forums" at the top... :o


Cameras: Canon 7D | Canon 450D
Lenses: EF 16-35mm f/2.8 L II | EF 50mm f1.4 | EF 100mm f/2.8 | EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 L | EF 400mm f/2.8 L | TS-E 24mm f/3.5 L | EF-S 10-22mm | EF 1.4x TC III
Gear: Zeikos ZE-CBG7D, RainbowImaging Wireless LCD Timer Remote Control for EOS, 430EX II x2

  
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krb
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Apr 20, 2012 23:48 |  #10

jrista wrote in post #14301728 (external link)
So by that, I'm guessing these are not directly affiliated with Canon? I managed to get here from an official Canon page...I guess I figured this was a Canon forum given that it said "Canon Digital Photography Forums" at the top... :o

It is the best forum for discussing Canon gear, but as it says at the bottom of every page:

"This forum is not affiliated with Canon in any way and is run as a free user helpsite by Pekka Saarinen, Helsinki Finland."


-- Ken
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Bear ­ Dale
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Apr 20, 2012 23:57 |  #11

Whats your "Serious concerns about the trend in Canon sensor technology...trend to nowhere"?

Why on earth couldn't you take a world class photograph with a 5D3 (or a 10D for that matter)?


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Bear Dale

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stargazer78
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Apr 20, 2012 23:58 as a reply to  @ krb's post |  #12

Quantum Efficiency (external link) of Canon dSLRs:

  • 2005: EOS 5D = 25%
  • 2007: EOS 1D Mark III = 29%
  • 2008: EOS 5D Mark II = 33%
  • 2009: EOS 1D Mark IV = 44%
  • 2012: EOS 5D Mark III = 49%
Canon is making strides in sensor development. They're just not doing it as quickly as Sony.



  
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jrista
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Apr 21, 2012 00:19 |  #13

stargazer78 wrote in post #14301773 (external link)
Quantum Efficiency (external link) of Canon dSLRs:
  • 2005: EOS 5D = 25%
  • 2007: EOS 1D Mark III = 29%
  • 2008: EOS 5D Mark II = 33%
  • 2009: EOS 1D Mark IV = 44%
  • 2012: EOS 5D Mark III = 49%
Canon is making strides in sensor development. They're just not doing it as quickly as Sony.

I don't deny they are making progress, but QE is only one factor of many that affects a sensor's performance. Canon seems to be stuck behind some kind of wall, though...they can't get past 12 stops of DR. They seem to be making cheap tradeoffs now to continue "making strides", and, if Exmor is any indication, cheap tradeoffs are unnecessary. To fotoworx's point...sure, I can take a great photograph with a 10D, but there are limitations. When one begins considering taking dark frames for their landscape work so they can remove fixed pattern noise that reaches almost into the midtones...something is amok. ;) When it comes to landscapes, particularly sunsets, having some extra dynamic range to work with would make a world of difference. I really expected Canon to finally make some strides on that front with the 5D III, given its predecessor's almost legendary use by landscape photographers. Its disappointing to see that not only was 0% improvement made at ISO 100, Canon actually took a step back. Seeing the difference visually on this fredmiranda page (which completely blew my mind...the D800 is a wonder of technology for sure), I had to voice my concerns:

http://www.fredmiranda​.com …dex_controlled-tests.html (external link)

Apologies that I voiced them in the wrong place. I reached these forums from Canon's site, and I guess I naturally assumed this was an official Canon forum. Feel free to lock or delete this, as I was hoping to get the attention of some official Canon reps. Its kind of a moot point to have it posted here.


Cameras: Canon 7D | Canon 450D
Lenses: EF 16-35mm f/2.8 L II | EF 50mm f1.4 | EF 100mm f/2.8 | EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 L | EF 400mm f/2.8 L | TS-E 24mm f/3.5 L | EF-S 10-22mm | EF 1.4x TC III
Gear: Zeikos ZE-CBG7D, RainbowImaging Wireless LCD Timer Remote Control for EOS, 430EX II x2

  
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whtrbt7
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Apr 21, 2012 02:08 |  #14

I posted on the other sensor rating thread but I'll post here again. The Fredmiranda comparison test seems to use an interpolate 5Dmkiii image in post to produce a 36.6MP image out of a 22.3MP image. I'm not sure why they decided to interpolate to 36.6MP in post because that is what causes the noise to appear in any photo in dark spots because it adds pixels and then adds noise to bandaid the pixels. If you're looking for ISO performance, why not just do a 100% crop and then take a look at the noise levels in the shadows? In any case, I agree that backlit CMOS sensors are excellent and produce gapless microlens planes in order to capture light more accurately. The Sony Exmor R sensors are just flat out awesome at that and then the translucent mirror also shortens the time it takes light to reach the sensor. No more mucking about with mechanical elements at that point. Nikon's new FX sensor is pretty nice though. Even though the sensor size is the same as the 5Dmkiii, it still manages an effective 36.6MP without losing detail. I still think the 5Dmkiii is great for Canon people but if you're looking for the raw 36.6MP, Nikon or medium format is the way to go.




  
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brokensocial
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Apr 21, 2012 02:12 |  #15

There's more to photography than ISO, but we also found the results quite odd. Better AF is great, but I wonder how many 5D2 fans would have traded the improved video of the 5D3 for better ISO.


[mike and frida] photography - we shoot stuff.
chicago wedding photography (external link) | chicago wedding photography blog (external link)

  
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