Serious concerns about the trend in Canon sensor technology...trend to nowhere?

jrista wrote in post #14301624
I recently finished reading the DxO review for the 5D Mark III. While I am not a huge DxO fan, and I take their results with a grain of salt, I do pay attention to their numbers. I was willing to be rather forgiving of Canon for not producing a better sensor in the 5D III (and I suspect we'll see similar results with the 1D X), as they offered so many other enhancements beyond IQ.

However after seeing the results all over the web (not just at DxO) for the 5D III, and checking the raw numbers at sensorgen.info, I am rather concerned about the trend in Canon sensor technology (particularly given the increases in cost...a $700 difference in price is really rather shocking). For all their talk, Canon seems to have barely managed to maintain the status quo, and has taken a rather alarming step backwards in terms of low ISO read noise (according to sensorgen data, a whopping 20% step back!) I awaited the 5D III with baited breath, and while I was ecstatic about the AF, VF, and host of other physical improvements, I decided to wait and see if Canon announced their own high-MP camera with better IQ. For my landscape work, more megapixels and higher DR will really do wonders. However therein lies my concern... Will Canon release a high MP pro DSLR that has the same horrid low-ISO read noise as the 5D III? What about other future Canon cameras...the 1Ds X? The 7D II? The 5D IV or perhaps a 3D?

I'm thoroughly invested in Canon lenses, and as such, I'm pretty much a Canon guy. I like my gear, and love the innovation Canon puts into its lenses. I love the fact that they have some very unique optical technology like the MP-E 65mm 1-5x Zoom Macro, TS-E lenses, Diffractive Optics in small, lightweight packages, and the stellar quality and nanocoating of L-series glass. But a 20% step backwards in terms of low ISO read noise in what is supposed to be the top of the line pinnacle of Canon sensor technology...is completely unacceptable to me. Its great to make improvements to a sensor, but not at the cost of performance elsewhere...trade-offs don't make for good sales pitches when the competition is making headway on every front, and I've reached the end of my available rope for leeway and forgiveness. Canon really needs to get on the ball and COMPETE with the competition, and produce something that at the very least is on-par with what Sony Exmor sensors and Nikon DSLR's are offering. Remaining stuck at approximately 11.5 stops of maximum theoretical DR (read that as limited shadow recovery...a critical factor in photographing landscapes at sunrise or sunset) and increasing read noise with each successive generation of a camera is just plain and simply unacceptable, from an otherwise avid Canon customer's standpoint.

Remaining on this path will LITERALLY make me move my landscape photography to the Nikon D800e and a 14-24mm lens. It is certainly not something I want to do...I have nothing against Nikon, but I don't really like having to double my expenses and use two different products for the same general thing. I would much prefer to stick with Canon for 100% of my photography, but landscapes bleed extensive dynamic range, even with GND filters. Nikon and Sony have directly addressed this problem, and at a cheaper price point to boot...thats a very difficult thing to stick ones nose up at, especially when things seem to be moving in the opposite direction for your chosen, preferred brand.

So here is a heartfelt plea to Canon from a vested user: Please put some serious effort into addressing low ISO performance, and find some way to eliminate read noise. Please stop finding ways to "cheat" the system (i.e. using more translucent red and blue color filters in your bayer CFA to increase signal...thats just a copout, and you can do better! :mad Some measurable, meaningful improvements in the categories of dynamic range and read noise are an essential requirement for my continued patronage of Canon. I'll probably always stick with this brand for my action work, I'm too thoroughly invested in Canon telephoto lenses, batteries, and accessory gear to switch, and high ISO performance doesn't seem to be a problem. But I can't limit the bounds of my photography and creativity on a matter of principle or the desire for convenience, and improvements to dynamic range and read noise were, ultimately...despite all the other shiny new features in the 5D III...my primary deciding factor regarding whether to buy one or not.

So please, stop the half measures and simple tricks to barely scrape by and maintain the status quo. Put some real, honest, dedicated effort and innovation behind your next sensors. Make some recognizable improvements (particularly, eliminate as much read noise as possible...fixed pattern noise visible in the low midtones or making shadows entirely unrecoverable is just no longer acceptable when its been demonstrated by the competition that FPN can be eliminated.) Give me a really good reason to keep talking up Canon as an excellent brand for any and every kind of photography, and stick with it myself for all of my own photography. And do it soon...I've waited three years for the 5D III, which is exciting in many respects...but in all honesty a let-down in terms of overall IQ, enough so that I've decided to hold off on purchasing the thing I've waited so long to buy.

I'm not going to read all this. You lost my interest as soon as you mentioned DxO.

However, I do have a question:

Will th 5D III prevent you from making great images?

It's troubling but it's hard to say it will stay this way. They've traded some punches in the past and I certainly hope they'll continue to do so in the future by passing the performance crown back and forth.

jrista wrote in post #14301664
Probably...but I don't think I'm alone in the sentiment, and discussing the issues on other, non-official Canon forums isn't a good way to get Canon's attention on the subject.

Canon has indeed failed to impress this time, and you are certainly not alone in your sentiment. It is just that there is a small group of vocal fanboys around here (and on other forums) who will defend their brand no matter what. These people are emotionally invested, and they really can't accept that their new Camera from heaven isn't as heavenly as it should have been.

As a Canon-user I think it is quite sad that there hasn't been any notable sensor advancement since 2007. The 5D3 is really just a "fixed" 5D2, with total disregard of the advancements the competition is bringing out The 5D3 is overpriced by $1k. The current $3.5k would've been totally acceptable if the camera provided 2 instead of barely 1 stop of ISO difference over the competition, and AT LEAST matching it's dynamic range.

So Canon, please don't forget to upgrade the sensor next time. It is kinda the most important thing when upgrading your camera.

Like someone else said: Just look at your main competition. Their new D800 is an upgrade is so many more ways than "new AF", rate button and "a touch sensitive scroll wheel for video". It is a package deal including important stuff like image quality.

jrista wrote in post #14301664
Probably...but I don't think I'm alone in the sentiment, and discussing the issues on other, non-official Canon forums isn't a good way to get Canon's attention on the subject.

I AM a Canon fan, but the discrepancy and price points between Canon and the competition is just too large to leave concerns unspoken. I don't know if Canon reps read this forum, or if they do if they even take customer concerns voiced here into account. If there is a more appropriate forum that will get the attention of the right Canon people, I'd love to know it.

There's no official connection between POTN and Canon...

Ricku wrote in post #14302139
Canon has indeed failed to impress this time, and you are certainly not alone in your sentiment. It is just that there is a group of vocal fanboys around here (and on other forums) who will defend their brand no matter what, in the most childish kinds of ways.

As a Canon-user I think it is quite sad that there hasn't been any notable sensor advancement since 2007. 5D3 is really just a "fixed" 5D2, with total disregard of the advancements the competition is bringing out.. The Mark III is overpriced by $1k. The current $3.5k would've been totally acceptable if the camera provided 2 instead of barely 1 stop of ISO difference over the competition, and AT LEAST matching it's dynamic range.

The new AF is great, but I also believe that the only reason for Canon to finally put a pro grade AF in the 5D line, was that the camera indeed has nothing else to offer to generate sales.

So Canon, please don't forget to upgrade the sensor next time. It is kinda the most important thing when upgrading your camera.

Really now? Where on the 5D3 do you see anything similar to the 5D2? The 5D3 isn't a "fixed 5D2" it's a totally different camera built from the ground up. If the only thing you care about is sensor quality then go ahead and grab a D800. I just hope you don't miss any moments that you might have been able to catch with 6fps

bikeboynate wrote in post #14302146
Really now? Where on the 5D3 do you see anything similar to the 5D2? The 5D3 isn't a "fixed 5D2" it's a totally different camera built from the ground up. If the only thing you care about is sensor quality then go ahead and grab a D800. I just hope you don't miss any moments that you might have been able to catch with 6fps

Not everyone cares about high FPS. In fact, I'd say that 50 - 60 % of the photography world would settle for 2 - 3 fps.

FPS won't give you better IQ and detail.

TS: If your sig is correct and up to date, I fail to see how you are too invested in Canon glass. You could easily unload that gear and change to Nikon. I understand that you would rather stay Canon for your sports, and that having a Nikon for just landscapes is a bit rediculous, BUT!! It's like how I have my 1D3 just for shooting taekwondo and the very occasional birds/wildlife. I could get by with just my 5D2, but dual bodies is nice to have. The fact that they are the same brand and share the same lenses sounds like just a bonus in your case.

I do completely agree with your points in your first post and I too wish Canon would make a better DR camera, but I'm still astounded at how well the 5D2 performs. The 1D3/5D2 combo performs well enough for me that I stopped considering the 5D3 all together when I saw only 6fps. Have you considered a 5D2 at all?

bikeboynate wrote in post #14302146
Really now? Where on the 5D3 do you see anything similar to the 5D2? The 5D3 isn't a "fixed 5D2" it's a totally different camera built from the ground up. If the only thing you care about is sensor quality then go ahead and grab a D800. I just hope you don't miss any moments that you might have been able to catch with 6fps

From our perspective (we're married wedding photographers), the 5D3 is basically the 5D2 with a working AF system. The D800 is a D700 with 3x the resolution. Most folks we've come across who use the 5D2 for work only plan on getting the 5D3 for the AF, if they plan on getting it at all.

FPS isn't that important to me, as the first thing I do with a new camera is move it to single shot mode anyway (I can't stand culling identical shots). My wife likes a few FPS for being able to take multiple shots of the bouquet toss, but besides that, I'd say 2 FPS is plenty for her.

bikeboynate wrote in post #14302146
Really now? Where on the 5D3 do you see anything similar to the 5D2? The 5D3 isn't a "fixed 5D2" it's a totally different camera built from the ground up. If the only thing you care about is sensor quality then go ahead and grab a D800. I just hope you don't miss any moments that you might have been able to catch with 6fps

I had a quick look at your Flickr, and I find it strange that you put so much value in high FPS, when most of your photography won't benefit from it. Higher DR and more detail is what you (and I) need.

..Unless you have some secret collection of sport photos hidden away somewhere?

Edit: And Increased FPS is no excuse to skip sensor improvement. I wish Canonites would just stop trying to find silly excuses all the time?

Having very high FPS isn't always about garnering an entire sequence. It can assist in nailing "the moment" which then becomes the one image that gets shown.

bikeboynate wrote in post #14302146
Really now? Where on the 5D3 do you see anything similar to the 5D2? The 5D3 isn't a "fixed 5D2" it's a totally different camera built from the ground up. If the only thing you care about is sensor quality then go ahead and grab a D800. I just hope you don't miss any moments that you might have been able to catch with 6fps

One question:
If the 5D3 had the same AF system as the 5D2, would you have upgraded?

For the DR, resolution and detail of the D800, I would settle for 3 fps.

Maybe even 1.

FPS. yes.
ISO. yes
Ergo. yes.

I've been used to the 9pt AF system with my xsi or 60D but the images that come out of my 5D3 are 5x sharper. Honestly though, why would they not have improved the AF system? It was a complaint from the 5D2 owners. They would have been stupid to not put at least the 7D's AF in the 5D3. IMO AF is what makes the price so high, which is fine by me because it's an amazing system.

Tonyz wrote in post #14302184
For the DR, resolution and detail of the D800, I would settle for 3 fps.

Maybe even 1.

Well sure if you shoot ONLY studio or Landscape.

For people like me who need the FPS, AF, Ergo aspects of the camera, the 5D3 beats the D800 in all those categories. It's not just the sensor that makes your photos good.


Oh and not to mention having enough storage to store all those 36mp RAW files, since everyone knows how bad the D800 does at JPEG processing.

Which takes me to another aspect of my photography needs. Having JPEG's to send to the editor is of utmost importance in photojournalism is it not? The 5D3 beats the D800 in many more working situations IMO.

But hey, more power to you if you want to jump ship.

bikeboynate wrote in post #14302188
FPS. yes.
ISO. yes
Ergo. yes.

I've been used to the 9pt AF system with my xsi or 60D...

Ah, well in that case it is fully understandable that you are impressed with the 5D3. Congratulations and enjoy.

But at the same time, please understand that for all the 5D2-shooters out there, the 5D3 doesn't bring much to the table. People were hoping for a notable sensor improvement (DR, detail, sharpness, e.t.c), but instead Canon gave them a "5D2.1" or "5D2N", and named it the 5D3.