Why are photographers who use Auto modes so mocked by others?

Foodguy wrote in post #14305400
Having made my living as a photographer for 25+ years, I can't recall ever being asked what mode I was shooting in.

Thankfully in real life and face to face, people are a lot less fervent and have more manners than what seems to overcome some people when they are sitting at a keyboard and have the benefit on anonymity.

fotoworx wrote in post #14305383
But why should people be mocked for not knowing how to use M mode? People take up photography, get immersed in the hobby and have a learning period.

You see them ask a benign question about such and such and they're jumped on by the M zeolots with comments like "What? You've gone and bought a DSLR and you don't know how to shoot off the P mode....what a joke".

No wonder we so many people join photography forums, post a few times and then you never see them again!

POTN has a rule, "Don't be a jerk".

But POTN is also a public forum -- you are free to join, and to post. If though you violate this or other rules, your time here may be "short-lived" -- it's at the discretion of the mods.

And yes, occasionally someone spouts off in a rude way toward another member, and at some point we see a mod stepping in.

But really, given the thousands of members we have it's not that often. Right now over 800 members are logged in (and a lot of "lurkers"/Guests) and you just don't see people "crossing the line" very often.

So, I'd suggest that when you see someone "being a jerk", either mildly address them, or report them (the red triangle icon) or ignore them.

Really, that's it. Let's not have another long drawn-out session complainging about the behavior of a small minority!

And that isn't just about Manual shooters either -- I see people occasionally being disdainful about Manual shooters, claiming that they are "chasing the needle centered" exposure, ha ha. Well, then someone has to inform people that they are being ignorant about the Manual exposure method...but again, put it mildly, "Don't be a jerk"!

Tv, Av and Manual all require at least some input from the shooter in the exposure decision-making process while P doesn't (unless you want to shift the SS/Aperture balance.)

IMO, growth as a photographer means that you become increasingly smarter than your camera. So, while P has its place as a way to start to learn how your camera sees the world, I think it's seen as a sign of weakness to rely on your camera full time. We all start somewhere but the sooner you can inject more of "You" and less of the camera, the sooner you can start to capture the world your way and not the way a programmer at Canon thinks you should.

The only genuine 'pro' I ever met, the guy who owns Lakota Wolf Preserve, who once lived on a Wolf preserve and shot for NatGeo, told me he only ever used P. He thought even that was radically superior to what he used in his prime.

When I met him, he was pushing 80.

Well, in P (Program) mode you actually can use Exposure Compensation just like you can in Av and Tv. P mode is actually fine if you "don't care" about controlling either your Aperture or shutter speed.

And then, as you mentioned, P does have a further "tweak" where you can use the "Program shift" function to change the aperture/shutter speed combo without changing the exposure.

Actually, P mode can be useful say when using flash in a non-studio setting because it does try to pick pretty "intelligent" settings for the aperture and shutter speed.

Like Tony mentioned, if you see someone being a jerk, use the report triangle. The mods do a superb job here of keeping things calm and on the right track, but they can't be in every single thread. Reporting a thread or a post lets them focus on potential problems instead of having to sift through every single post. Don't forget, the mods are all volunteers, most of whom came here for the very same reason we did....to participate in the exchange of knowledge and information without being spammed, insulted, attacked or otherwise annoyed.

FlyingPhotog wrote in post #14305553
IMO, growth as a photographer means that you become increasingly smarter than your camera. So, while P has its place as a way to start to learn how your camera sees the world, I think it's seen as a sign of weakness to rely on your camera full time. We all start somewhere but the sooner you can inject more of "You" and less of the camera, the sooner you can start to capture the world your way and not the way a programmer at Canon thinks you should.

I agree, P has a big part in newbie photographers learning and it's great that they can slowly at their leisure venture away from P as their confidence rises.

tonylong wrote in post #14305580
Actually, P mode can be useful say when using flash in a non-studio setting because it does try to pick pretty "intelligent" settings for the aperture and shutter speed.

Thats about the only time I use P, with an on camera flash. For family events like memorable gatherings etc when I know that It can't be reshot and it's critical that I have some "memories" of the occasion I can be pretty sure that an on camera flash and P will deliver some memento photographs.

Woolburr wrote in post #14305698
The mods do a superb job here of keeping things calm and on the right track, but they can't be in every single thread. Reporting a thread or a post lets them focus on potential problems instead of having to sift through every single post.

Absolulely the mods do a tremendous job. I think people would get a shock just how much "cleaning up of the threads" they do. You can re-visit a 'not so friendly' thread a few hours later and see that it's been pruned and shrunken very nicely by the mods to keep POTN the friendly, helpful and enjoyable place that it is to spend time at.

FlyingPhotog wrote in post #14302190
It ain't rocket surgery...

If I want to control motion: Tv
If I want to control DOF: Av
If nothing is changing or if I have complete control: Manual

Why do some feel the need to equate photography with some mysterious sociological pattern?

Yep, this sums it up.

Green box mode often (but not always) makes choices that produce bad photos.

Autofocus usually (but not always) makes choices that produce good photos.

Green box mode usually fails spectacularly in difficult photographic conditions, where it takes a moderately skilled photographer to produce a usable photo. Yet, autofocus often becomes even more valuable in difficult photographic conditions.

Let's see.... I began (not counting Instamatic and Brownie) with a match needle SLR where everything was manual. Did some good stuff with it. Then got an SLR with auto functions. Got some good images, but not as many keepers for some reason (Maybe because I thought that the camera AI was smarter than it was?). Then I had a hiatus where I really didn't do any photography before coming back in with a series of P&S digitals. Again not a lot of joy as far as the ability to control the image. Step forward to DSLR.

Started with Av, Tv because I knew from past experience how to use them. Tried a bit of "M" but the T1i was not that friendly in manual. Upgrade to 60D. Learned to use manual again, also manual with auto ISO. Did ok, but missed shots when I forgot to check settings before hitting the shutter. Come up to today, I'm back to using a lot of Av, Tv (with EC as needed), and a bit of manual when it's indicated. I usually set the ISO, so now when I'm in manual, it is true manual.

I use auto focus all of the time except for some macro where live view is the best way to go.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone can use anything they want. That's why they make these cameras with options.

It is amazing to me AV is so accepted as usable by veteran professionals, but P isnt. AV is sooooo auto lol, like has been said its all pretty auto, even in M (still metered), just allowing you dof, but I dont know how you would need more then a very basic understanding of aperture for AV.

I say do what you want, I personally just like the small bit of creative control of AV, and the obvious SS reasoning for TV.

JersFocus wrote in post #14310560
It is amazing to me AV is so accepted as usable by veteran professionals, but P isnt. AV is sooooo auto lol, like has been said its all pretty auto, even in M (still metered), just allowing you dof, but I dont know how you would need more then a very basic understanding of aperture for AV.

I say do what you want, I personally just like the small bit of creative control of AV, and the obvious SS reasoning for TV.

It is all a matter of relinquishing or maintaining control.

• Green box gives no control at all.
  
• P give no control of parameters (unless the photographer does adjustment via back wheel)
  
• Av and Tv gives photographer the control of two parameters of choice (ISO being one of them)
  
• M gives photographer control of three parameters.

Wilt wrote in post #14310596
It is all a matter of relinquishing or maintaining control.

• Green box gives no control at all.
  
• P give no control of parameters (unless the photographer does adjustment via back wheel)
  
• Av and Tv gives photographer the control of two parameters of choice (ISO being one of them)
  
• M gives photographer control of three parameters.

Green box and P are very close to Push Here Dummy chimpanzee pressing shutter button. Professionals would like to believe that they have a bit of training to warrant maintaining a degree of control of the parameters which are of utmost importance...DOF control, motion freezing control, noise control.

Changing DoF/ss or is but a small piece of the pie, IMO, original composition, proper lighting, subjects, positioning, etc etc is as important if not more. I 100% understand what you are saying and I really only use P if I am in a jam and need a shot NOW, but I think there is more to it then using AV or TV, which is accepted as pro, yet is close to fully automated.


Also to be fair, you can change style, EC, WB etc, in AV and TV, adding more creativity.

In conclusion, I dont really know what my point is, other then AV/TV vs P, does not make the photog, nor is it important to me haha. I n all honesty people who are enthusiasts or pro, dont use P unless they have a reason, and I would guess 90% of the time, its because they needed a shot NOW and were not sure of the light or something else they didnt have time to evaluate, so used it. /shrug

Wilt wrote in post #14310596
It is all a matter of relinquishing or maintaining control.

• Green box gives no control at all.
  
• P give no control of parameters (unless the photographer does adjustment via back wheel)
  
• Av and Tv gives photographer the control of two parameters of choice (ISO being one of them)
  
• M gives photographer control of three parameters.

Green box and P are very close to Push Here Dummy chimpanzee pressing shutter button. Professionals would like to believe that they have a bit of training to warrant maintaining a degree of control of the parameters which are of utmost importance...DOF control, motion freezing control, noise control.

Well P does have a few big differences over green box. In addition to exposure compensation, it allows the user to change the ISO, metering mode, white balance, AF point, back button focus, exposure lock, etc. Yes, the shutter speed and aperture and chosen by the camera, but pretty much all of the other controls are available. I imagine that if someone shot regularly in P, they'd get a pretty good idea what the camera is going to want to do and could use the available controls to influence/override it.