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Thread started 03 Jun 2012 (Sunday) 18:41
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Canon EOS 3D, will we finally see the unicorn?

 
Stone ­ 13
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Jun 04, 2012 17:28 |  #31

EL_PIC wrote in post #14531031 (external link)
We have said this for about 5 years now.

I think the original rumor for the EOS 3 started back in 2004.


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Shadowblade
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Jun 04, 2012 18:02 |  #32

orbitechgr wrote in post #14531021 (external link)
Nice to hear news about something like this.. This should be an amazing dslr..

I just hope it won't be double the price for nothing more than 4k video and an extra 2fps which no landscape or studio photographer is ever going to use...




  
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orbitechgr
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Jun 05, 2012 02:39 |  #33

EL_PIC wrote in post #14531031 (external link)
We have said this for about 5 years now.

Agreed but it is the first time that we can make a valid hypothesis about it right? I mean with the D800/E here, it is much more plausible to happen now more than ever.

Shadowblade wrote in post #14531204 (external link)
I just hope it won't be double the price for nothing more than 4k video and an extra 2fps which no landscape or studio photographer is ever going to use...

I wish that this is the truth but I wouldn't hold my breath..Canon depicts an "aggressive" price policy lately. But we have to wait and see.


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Shadowblade
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Jun 05, 2012 03:10 |  #34

orbitechgr wrote in post #14532978 (external link)
Agreed but it is the first time that we can make a valid hypothesis about it right? I mean with the D800/E here, it is much more plausible to happen now more than ever.

I wish that this is the truth but I wouldn't hold my breath..Canon depicts an "aggressive" price policy lately. But we have to wait and see.

They must be deluded if they think they can get away with pricing a landscape/studio camera with similar resolution and IQ as the D800 at double the price, just by including a few extra features which are of no use at all to a landscape or studio photographer (and, in the case of the inbuilt grip, often detrimental)...




  
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meia ­ lua
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Jun 05, 2012 07:20 |  #35

Stone 13 wrote in post #14529955 (external link)
As for the 1DX body type, probably just a way to save costs sharing with 2 cameras, but I would think 16-bit output would be high everyone's list. I think we all know DR at base ISO is the elephant in the room. If this camera is actually produced which I'm sure it will in some form, you'll finally see if the exmor sensor has struck a nerve with Canon. I still don't think it has....

Shadowblade wrote in post #14529634 (external link)
Nice... but why the 1D-type body? You don't need it for landscape or studio shooting, and you can always put on a grip if you really want one. There's a reason landscape photographers went crazy about the 5D2 and now the D800, but not so much about the 1Ds3 or D3x, and it's not just price - many of those who bought the 5D2 or D800 also own medium-format digital backs.

For likely twice the price of the D800, it better offer something more than just two extra frames per second (which landscape/studio photographers are unlikely to care about). 16-bit output and better DR, maybe?

Heh...16 bit output is one of those wonderful marketing tags that sounds scientific and useful but is in fact the opposite. No camera out today can provide 16 bits worth of useful data - none have the combination of high enough FWC and low read noise for the noise step (shot + read) to not swamp the quantization step at 16 bits in the shadows (shot noise already swamps it in midtones and highlights). You could have a 2 bit random noise generator to append 2 bits to every pixel reading coming off the sensor, or even just add 2 dithered bits in PP - they'd have the same effect as native 16 bit output. Most cameras don't even justify 14 bit capture at base ISO (and none do above it), let alone 16.

Rumour wise, it's 8? years and counting since someone first talked about a "3D". I think we'll still be counting. :)




  
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Shadowblade
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Jun 05, 2012 07:35 |  #36

meia lua wrote in post #14533485 (external link)
Heh...16 bit output is one of those wonderful marketing tags that sounds scientific and useful but is in fact the opposite. No camera out today can provide 16 bits worth of useful data - none have the combination of high enough FWC and low read noise for the noise step (shot + read) to not swamp the quantization step at 16 bits in the shadows (shot noise already swamps it in midtones and highlights). You could have a 2 bit random noise generator to append 2 bits to every pixel reading coming off the sensor, or even just add 2 dithered bits in PP - they'd have the same effect as native 16 bit output. Most cameras don't even justify 14 bit capture at base ISO (and none do above it), let alone 16.

Rumour wise, it's 8? years and counting since someone first talked about a "3D". I think we'll still be counting. :)

The point of 16-bit output isn't to have 16 bits of useful data. It's so that your 12th brightest stop has 16 discrete levels (useful) rather than 4 discrete levels (limited).




  
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andrikos
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Jun 05, 2012 07:46 |  #37

So there are two things at play here regarding Canon's pricing of the (assuming it's real) 3D :

1) Price erosion/pressure from competition (i.e. D800)
2) Fear of price collapse of existing and/or slightly older models (i.e. cheapening the brand).

So, how does Canon offer a competitively priced product without admitting "defeat" and pissing off the current 5DIII owners at the same time?

Admittedly the pro landscape crowd is smaller than the pro wedding/event crowd and it's pretty clear that the PJ/sports crowd is served by the 1Dx. Also, it seems that a few of them have already been sucked in by the dark side and/or using dual systems.

Canon is quite in a pickle here. Hopefully they'll surprise us with lower than expected pricing (unlikely). Maybe same price as 5DIII? Yeah right! ;)


Think new Canon lenses are overpriced? Lots (and lots) of data will set you free!

  
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EL_PIC
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Jun 05, 2012 08:16 |  #38
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andrikos wrote in post #14533552 (external link)
So there are two things at play here regarding Canon's pricing of the (assuming it's real) 3D :

1) Price erosion/pressure from competition (i.e. D800)
2) Fear of price collapse of existing and/or slightly older models (i.e. cheapening the brand).

So, how does Canon offer a competitively priced product without admitting "defeat" and pissing off the current 5DIII owners at the same time?

Admittedly the pro landscape crowd is smaller than the pro wedding/event crowd and it's pretty clear that the PJ/sports crowd is served by the 1Dx. Also, it seems that a few of them have already been sucked in by the dark side and/or using dual systems.

Canon is quite in a pickle here. Hopefully they'll surprise us with lower than expected pricing (unlikely). Maybe same price as 5DIII? Yeah right! ;)

Fix the problem with the Canon 5D MKIII first.
Its a 5D MK 2.5 at a MK IV price.


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Stone ­ 13
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Jun 05, 2012 09:37 |  #39

EL_PIC wrote in post #14533663 (external link)
Fix the problem with the Canon 5D MKIII first.
Its a 5D MK 2.5 at a MK IV price.

I don't understand what the problem is with the 5DIII that needs fixing. People that own it seem to be quite happy with the upgrade.

If you're talking about the sensor, then your best hope is an all new camera, I don't think Canon perceives a problem with the 5DIII and current sales seems to agree with them. But we're talking about the 3D here. ;)


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rick_reno
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Jun 05, 2012 10:29 |  #40

Stone 13 wrote in post #14533983 (external link)
I don't understand what the problem is with the 5DIII that needs fixing. People that own it seem to be quite happy with the upgrade.

If you're talking about the sensor, then your best hope is an all new camera, I don't think Canon perceives a problem with the 5DIII and current sales seems to agree with them. But we're talking about the 3D here. ;)

I'm not unhappy with the feature set of the 5D3, but at the price they want for it I'm passing. Features are fine, price for what it has is way over the top.




  
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uOpt
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Jun 05, 2012 12:24 |  #41

What I would want with this thing is a way to restrict the pixels saved to the center, say the APS-C crop area.

This could be the camera you can use to replace a 5d and a 7d, because the pixel density finally approaches the 7D, so if you can't afford or carry a long enough lens you aren't screwed.

Of course then you also need some sort of low-noise body.


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Shadowblade
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Jun 05, 2012 13:01 |  #42

andrikos wrote in post #14533552 (external link)
So there are two things at play here regarding Canon's pricing of the (assuming it's real) 3D :

1) Price erosion/pressure from competition (i.e. D800)
2) Fear of price collapse of existing and/or slightly older models (i.e. cheapening the brand).

So, how does Canon offer a competitively priced product without admitting "defeat" and pissing off the current 5DIII owners at the same time?

Admittedly the pro landscape crowd is smaller than the pro wedding/event crowd and it's pretty clear that the PJ/sports crowd is served by the 1Dx. Also, it seems that a few of them have already been sucked in by the dark side and/or using dual systems.

Canon is quite in a pickle here. Hopefully they'll surprise us with lower than expected pricing (unlikely). Maybe same price as 5DIII? Yeah right! ;)

The obvious solution would be to release a 4fps, compact-body version at $3k, or maybe $3.5k if it includes 4k video. The 5D3 doesn't get cannibalised because it shoots 3fps faster, for those who need it. It also competes against the D800.

The elephant in the room, of course, is the sensor's low-ISO shadow noise performance and dynamic range. These are paramount to the camera's obvious targets - studio and landscape photographers - who rarely shoot at high ISO and need all the image quality they can get. If they can't fix this, then, even at $3k, it will be a distant second to the D800 (although cinematographers may appreciate the 4k video feature).




  
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meia ­ lua
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Jun 05, 2012 14:56 |  #43

Shadowblade wrote in post #14533524 (external link)
The point of 16-bit output isn't to have 16 bits of useful data. It's so that your 12th brightest stop has 16 discrete levels (useful) rather than 4 discrete levels (limited).

For that, what I described earlier works perfectly. Just take the 14 bit file and append 2 random bits to it. If you're wanting to avoid posterisation, that will fix it entirely.




  
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andrikos
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Jun 05, 2012 15:08 |  #44

Wait, you want to add two random bits on TOP of the MSB (most significant bit)?
You do realize it's not quite the same thing as adding two random bits to the LSB (least significant bit) where the shadows reside...


Think new Canon lenses are overpriced? Lots (and lots) of data will set you free!

  
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Jun 05, 2012 21:09 as a reply to  @ andrikos's post |  #45

If this EOS 3D came out true, then I'll be gladly to buy any of your used 5D3, at a fraction of what you paid originally.


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