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Thread started 05 Jun 2012 (Tuesday) 08:16
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Why are "Leica" camera so expensive?

 
folville
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Jun 11, 2012 21:13 |  #226

RobDickinson wrote in post #14565385 (external link)
Yep I see the appeal of using one, was quite tempted with an m9 myself but the overall cost was too much. I just havnt seen the miraculous better than canon output.

There's nothing magical about them, that's for sure.

Leica users often sound as if they're talking about more than photography, as if shooting Leica were a religious experience--something sacred in a profane (external link) world. Commenters in this thread have pointed out that Leica zealots spend almost as much time on the experience of shooting Leica as on the actual photos when defending the brand. That's the case because lots of Leica shooters have drunk the kool-aid.

Here's an anecdote I think summarizes that phenomenon. Leica has stores in major cities across the globe. I stopped by the Mayfair store while in London a few months ago because my battery was dying and I needed a charge. I was buzzed into a bright, clean shop that had just a few glass cases and cabinets (classic Leica minimalism.) Swaddled in rich red were a handful of cameras, lenses and binoculars. The staff took my battery to a charger in back and offered me food and drink (sherry, if I recall).

We discussed lens availability (terrible everywhere) and the effects of the Japanese tsunami (forcing battery production to China, a disgrace for the proud company). Shooting and knowing Leica lore was the price of entry to this very selective club, and the people running that club assumed anyone who got in could and would spend $30,000 on an S2 kit on the spot if the mood struck.

I wish Leica would stop stroking the egos of its fortunate users by running its store that way and by producing special editions with Hermes or for the Sultan of Brunei. That nonsense touches the whole brand and permeates the entire user base to some degree, but the vast majority of Leica shooters just care about making photographs, which is why they shoot with a rangefinder to begin with.


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Jun 11, 2012 21:17 |  #227

folville wrote in post #14565733 (external link)
There's nothing magical about them, that's for sure.

Leica users often sound as if they're talking about more than photography, as if shooting Leica were a religious experience--something sacred in a profane (external link) world. Commenters in this thread have pointed out that Leica zealots spend almost as much time on the experience of shooting Leica as on the actual photos when defending the brand. That's the case because lots of Leica shooters have drunk the kool-aid.

Here's an anecdote I think summarizes that phenomenon. Leica has stores in major cities across the globe. I stopped by the Mayfair store while in London a few months ago because my battery was dying and I needed a charge. I was buzzed into a bright, clean shop that had just a few glass cases and cabinets (classic Leica minimalism.) Swaddled in rich red were a handful of cameras, lenses and binoculars. The staff took my battery to a charger in back and offered me food and drink (sherry, if I recall).

We discussed lens availability (terrible everywhere) and the effects of the Japanese tsunami (forcing battery production to China, a disgrace for the proud company). Shooting and knowing Leica lore was the price of entry to this very selective club, and the people running that club assumed anyone who got in could and would spend $30,000 on an S2 kit on the spot if the mood struck.

I wish Leica would stop stroking the egos of its fortunate users by running its store that way and by producing special editions with Hermes or for the Sultan of Brunei. That nonsense touches the whole brand and permeates the entire user base to some degree, but the vast majority of Leica shooters just care about making photographs, which is why they shoot with a rangefinder to begin with.

And you nailed with that comment! ;) Now we can move on! :)




  
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Jun 12, 2012 02:44 |  #228

You mean it's the latter (low volume, high per-item profit), right?

right. that's what i get for typing quickly and not proofing it :(


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Jun 12, 2012 04:13 |  #229

airfrogusmc wrote in post #14563409 (external link)
Well see. I hope Leica understands their market and keeps the camera simple and easy to use and stays away form all the gadgets that separates them from the one size fits all cameras. The M 10 would be perfect if left as is only having really clean FF low noise high ISO.

Alex_Venom wrote in post #14563595 (external link)
And a Retina Display LCD on the back PLEEEEEASE :D

Aren't the things you are asking for just more bells and whistles? One size fits

Great high ISO = one size fits all. It allows you to shoot at night or during the day. Bell/whistle. If you are going to take the Leica concept as you have described it you would need a low light camera and a low sensitivity camera. Just saying.

Retina display = Bell/whistle. Are you trying to turn your Leica RF into a smartphone?

airfrogusmc wrote in post #14563600 (external link)
...snip...
I like many prefer to have a camera that doesn't have all the auto exposure bells and whistles that most consumers now demand and thank god theres a real quality option for those that don't want or need all the new updated technologies. New doesn't always mean better its just new.

Make up your mind. First you want no frills, then you want significant upgrades, now you are saying that new doesn't mean better. Very confusing and no wonder people don't get your arguments


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efoo
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Jun 12, 2012 06:14 |  #230

airfrogusmc wrote in post #14562300 (external link)
Again ya just don't get it and never will and thats OK but its not a snob thing for many no more than a Hasselbled or a 1DsMkIII is a snob thing for many maybe some but not all and not the majority. I will buy it because it doesn't have FPS and doesn't have all the stuff but instead is not mass produced. Something to be said for all of that and I'm not the only one. In fact I'm really thinking about the monochrome M9....

Nice to have choices besides the one size fits all.

OMG go back and read SunTzu's post again:

*******
My wife and I were at a french chocolate restaurant last night and some fellow walked in with an M7 around his body. My wife hates my Canon gear because it's too big and heavy. She asked me what the Leica was and I replied it was a $7000 camera (I guessed), that it was German and "nichey." On those points alone, she said she wanted one.
*******

Seriously does SunTzu's wife sounds like she really knows a lot about photography? Is she your typical Leica owner? If so, that's pretty sad. :rolleyes:

That's why I suggested other compact camera systems to SunTzu.


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Jun 12, 2012 06:46 |  #231

smythie wrote in post #14566985 (external link)
Aren't the things you are asking for just more bells and whistles? One size fits

Great high ISO = one size fits all. It allows you to shoot at night or during the day. Bell/whistle. If you are going to take the Leica concept as you have described it you would need a low light camera and a low sensitivity camera. Just saying.

Retina display = Bell/whistle. Are you trying to turn your Leica RF into a smartphone?

Make up your mind. First you want no frills, then you want significant upgrades, now you are saying that new doesn't mean better. Very confusing and no wonder people don't get your arguments

I don't see a better sensor as a bell/whistle as it is a main feature to offer you a better overall image quality, that is what we are looking for in the first place.

The Retina Display can be a bell/whistle but it would be great to confirm precise focus, what you just can't do accurately today using the 230k LCD. Selective focus is one of the main reasons you shoot ultra-fast glass (like the f/0.95 Noctilux) and you should be able to tell if you nailed it or not, as the smallest movement would change the focusing plane.


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airfrogusmc
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Jun 12, 2012 07:36 |  #232

smythie wrote in post #14566985 (external link)
Aren't the things you are asking for just more bells and whistles? One size fits

Great high ISO = one size fits all. It allows you to shoot at night or during the day. Bell/whistle. If you are going to take the Leica concept as you have described it you would need a low light camera and a low sensitivity camera. Just saying.

Retina display = Bell/whistle. Are you trying to turn your Leica RF into a smartphone?

Make up your mind. First you want no frills, then you want significant upgrades, now you are saying that new doesn't mean better. Very confusing and no wonder people don't get your arguments

Nope not at all. One size fits all is looking for a camera that sells itself as good at everything. Those cameras that are the one size fits all are auto everything and they try and advertise themselves to be everything to everybody. They are sold as you can do everything with them and you can but there are in many cases some that are better at specifics. The M series Leica is a range finder and knows that its not a sports camera or a studio camera but a great street and candid camera. Not one size fits all. An 8X10 Deardorff is not a one size fits all. Neither is a Hasselblad. Those are cameras that do what they do better than say a small format camera as does. There is not a better street camera out there than a Leica M but its not a camera for the zoom minded or the auto dependent. If those kind of cameras are what you want then there are MANY choices that both Canon and Nikon produce in very large numbers.

Most Leica lovers, me included, would be very happy if the M 10 were an M 3 with a great low light 21 mp sensor. Thats not bells and whistles or one size fits all.




  
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Jun 12, 2012 11:09 |  #233

5W0L3 wrote in post #14533667 (external link)
Are they better than the other DSLR's in any way?.. or do customers pay just for the brand name and they are just for people who want to brag about having a Leica? lol

Jethro790 wrote in post #14533677 (external link)
Is a Mercedes 300SL any different than a Ford Focus?

The original OP's question is why Leica is so expensive. A large part of it is definitely the brand. Take a look at these two cameras:
Leica D-Lux 5
Panasonic LX5

Look at the button layout. I worked in manufacturing in China for 3 years and I can tell you it is very common for design manufacturers (ODM) to sell the exact same PCB layout with a different industrial design to different customers. Many of the larger customers will make the ODMs sign NDAs so that it's never openly published that the marketing company does not own all the IP to their products. The only thing they own is the rights to the specific skin.

I don't know the entire Leica or Panasonic line inside out, but the above is at least one example where the exact same hardware (and almost certainly the same manufacturer) was used and Leica charges a premium.

So if we're answering the OP's question, let's just all be real here. A large element of the price premium is the branding. Leica is in many ways, a brand as much as it is a technology company (and I'm being very generous in the latter).

The car example is not bad but even the two quoted cars are quite different. The bodies above are exactly the same hardware.


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Jun 12, 2012 11:16 |  #234

Here are some links to brand equity of Leica. In this thread, I've openly admitted I'm a sucker for brands. Anyone else who denies the Leica price isn't affected by brand equity, is fooling himself/herself.

http://www.engadget.co​m …lx5-hitches-up-the-price/ (external link)
http://www.fastcompany​.com …-brand-leica-vs-panasonic (external link)


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Jun 12, 2012 12:11 |  #235

jdizzle wrote in post #14563232 (external link)
It's amazing that people are wishing for LV in the M10. :lol:

Many Leica owners are. Having the best landscape lenses and not being able to focus them properly frustrates many.




  
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Jun 12, 2012 12:21 |  #236

KhaledA wrote in post #14564943 (external link)
I will probably get flamed for this, but honestly, I don't find the Leica glass better than L glass, I'm not saying it's worse, just different look. Some might like that look, others don't. Personally, I prefer the Zeiss look.
As for the camera body itself...I don't get why I would pay more for something that gives me less options? I mean, if I'm in the mood for manual everything, I stick the camera on M, and use mf, and be happy, but it's nice to know that I also have metering worth a damn, and af when I need to get the shot now.
I get why it's considered the best street photography camera though, being compact, but a big part of street photography is at night, and I don't really like Leica's high ISO capabilities...unless I make it B&W...and I don't want all my photos to be B&W...
I've shot with an M8 for like a week, couldn't stand it...made my hands hurt...that's a personal thing though...but what I did find is that there's no magic to the photos, no magical, OMG must have this, experience, just different, if a bit worse than with my Canons, but that could be because I haven't gotten used to it, I dunno.

What I don't get is, why would I pay so much more just to get so much less? I could care less for luxury, I buy cameras to take pictures, not as a status symbol. I mean, if I wanted a camera without all the new stuff, and without giving me options for different needs, I could just buy an old film camera :/
I guess I'll never get it :p

The M glass is better than the L glass, the top R glass is better too if you can find it. The new 50mm f/2 APO just lives on another level compared to L glass. You really won't find better unless you step up a format to S glass.




  
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KhaledA
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Jun 12, 2012 13:51 |  #237

Laudrup wrote in post #14568723 (external link)
The M glass is better than the L glass, the top R glass is better too if you can find it. The new 50mm f/2 APO just lives on another level compared to L glass. You really won't find better unless you step up a format to S glass.

Better in what way exactly? sharper, yes, I'll give it that. But sharper doesn't equal better, nor what I'm looking for as a portrait photographer.

I had a Leica R 50mm F2 lens, wasn't impressed at all. Sold it in favor of the Zeiss ZE 50 F1.4, I'm much happier now. Don't get me wrong, it's a GREAT lens, just not what I'm looking for.


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Jun 12, 2012 14:05 |  #238

Laudrup wrote in post #14568685 (external link)
Many Leica owners are. Having the best landscape lenses and not being able to focus them properly frustrates many.

If one has bad eye sight, I wouldn't recommend it even with a magnifier. ;):lol:




  
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Jun 12, 2012 14:22 |  #239

KhaledA wrote in post #14569079 (external link)
Better in what way exactly? sharper, yes, I'll give it that. But sharper doesn't equal better, nor what I'm looking for as a portrait photographer.

I had a Leica R 50mm F2 lens, wasn't impressed at all. Sold it in favor of the Zeiss ZE 50 F1.4, I'm much happier now. Don't get me wrong, it's a GREAT lens, just not what I'm looking for.


I think a great example of a really good leica lens is the 50 summilux asph.. I find that lens very 3d and i like the rendering of the bokeh and also the transition from in focus to out of focus. Subjective perhaps but I also appreciate the reduction of weight.

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Jun 12, 2012 14:26 |  #240

inzite wrote in post #14569208 (external link)
I think a great example of a really good leica lens is the 50 summilux asph.. I find that lens very 3d and i like the rendering of the bokeh and also the transition from in focus to out of focus. Subjective perhaps but I also appreciate the reduction of weight.

QUOTED IMAGE
IMAGE LINK: http://www.flickr.com/​photos/inzite/62605643​09/  (external link)
L1004852 (external link) by inzite (external link), on Flickr

QUOTED IMAGE
IMAGE LINK: http://www.flickr.com/​photos/inzite/62665571​34/  (external link)
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QUOTED IMAGE
IMAGE LINK: http://www.flickr.com/​photos/inzite/62685000​59/  (external link)
L1005417 (external link) by inzite (external link), on Flickr

QUOTED IMAGE
IMAGE LINK: http://www.flickr.com/​photos/inzite/62758305​63/  (external link)
L1005595 (external link) by inzite (external link), on Flickr

Subjective, and like I said, it's great glass, just not what I was looking for.

I really like the second shot btw.


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Why are "Leica" camera so expensive?
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