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Thread started 10 Jun 2012 (Sunday) 10:41
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Best way to edit with photoshop from lightroom?

 
Dustin ­ Mustangs
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Jun 10, 2012 10:41 |  #1

Most of my work is done in LR but every once in a while I will need to use photoshop on an image that I will want back in lightroom once done. So I have been using the right-click, edit in PS method. This takes my image(s) to PS, allows me to make my edits, and then when closing them out it asks me if I want to save changes, which I say yes, and now I have an additional (tiff) file in LR with the edits. No additional dialog pops up, it just closes it down and zaps the new tiff into LR. This works OK, but I have a couple of gripes...

What if I want to go back and modify the changes made with PS? If I send that tiff back into PS all my layers are gone with how I am doing it. Can PS not output my changes back to LR in a RAW format? Not only are the tiff file sizes ridiculous but it puts all my sliders in LR back to the home position making further tweaking in LR a bit confusing. And wouldn't a RAW file handle the typical LR edits better than tiff anyway? I try to get my LR edits done before heading to PS but it would really be nice to have the flexibility to do it afterwords as well.

Am I doing this wrong or is this just the way the adobe cookie crumbles??

:confused:


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Jun 10, 2012 10:53 |  #2

That is the way I do it. I have not found a different way. I can see losing all your layers from the first PS edit being annoying.

Actually at the level you might consider not using LR. Maybe PS and open the RAW file as a Smart Object. That is what I do if I know I will be spending a lot of time on one image.

When I use LR I am moving pretty fast with my edits. When I want to go from LR into PS it is usually just one time but I try to avoid it for the stated reasons. If any else has figure this out I'd sure like to know.


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tonylong
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Jun 10, 2012 11:05 |  #3

You need to understand that Photoshop does not work on Raw files. For an image to be edited in Photoshop it needs to be converted to an RGB image, either a tiff, a psd, or another image format. Lightroom gives you the option of tiff, psd, or jpeg.

That's why when you are done in Photoshop and save the image you end up with a copy in Lightroom. You still have the original Raw, and the metadata for the work you have done with the Raw in Lightroom will still show up when you "open" the Raw, but the work you have done in Photoshop will only show up in the tiff copy. You can adjust things in Lightroom with the tiff, but can't "redo" the Raw developing you did with the Raw, which is why the sliders are re-positioned.

Now, one bit of detail...

If you saved the tiff in Photoshop with the layers retained, Lightroom will "keep" that file with the layers intact. If you want to re-open the file in Photoshop with those layers intact, in the Open with Photoshop dialog you will want to choose the "Open Original" option, not the Open Copy with Lightroom adjustments. Doing the latter will flatten the layers and apply any adjustments you've made in Lightroom.

In other words, don't do added adjustments in Lightroom until all your Photoshop layers work has been finished and you are ready for a "flattenced" version!


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Jun 10, 2012 11:21 |  #4

Good info Tony. Thanks


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PixelMagic
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Jun 10, 2012 12:39 |  #5

You might want to read this thread which has lots of useful information: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/in​dex.php?topic=63642.0 (external link)

In the same Lightroom menu with the command "Edit in Adobe Photoshop CSx" is one that says "Open as Smart Object in Photoshop."

Smart Objects wouldn't solve the problem of flattened TIFF files but it allows you to re-edit your initial Lightroom adjustments in Adobe Camera Raw (not Lightroom).

Dustin Mustangs wrote in post #14558478 (external link)
Most of my work is done in LR but every once in a while I will need to use photoshop on an image that I will want back in lightroom once done. So I have been using the right-click, edit in PS method. This takes my image(s) to PS, allows me to make my edits, and then when closing them out it asks me if I want to save changes, which I say yes, and now I have an additional (tiff) file in LR with the edits. No additional dialog pops up, it just closes it down and zaps the new tiff into LR. This works OK, but I have a couple of gripes...

What if I want to go back and modify the changes made with PS? If I send that tiff back into PS all my layers are gone with how I am doing it. Can PS not output my changes back to LR in a RAW format? Not only are the tiff file sizes ridiculous but it puts all my sliders in LR back to the home position making further tweaking in LR a bit confusing. And wouldn't a RAW file handle the typical LR edits better than tiff anyway? I try to get my LR edits done before heading to PS but it would really be nice to have the flexibility to do it afterwords as well.

Am I doing this wrong or is this just the way the adobe cookie crumbles??

:confused:


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Jun 10, 2012 13:10 |  #6

Hmmm. I never even noticed Open as a SO in PS before. Thanks


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Dustin ­ Mustangs
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Jun 11, 2012 21:23 |  #7

Good stuff here, thanks for the replies. The 'open original' option for files that have already gone through PS does solve one of my main gripes.

I guess the only real problem I have now is the file size produced by doing this. It seems anything done with layers is going to end up at least 200 mb, either as a tiff or psd. One I did this weekend combined different parts of 3 images with masks on separate layers, one of which had a slight Gaussian blur and ended up as a layered tiff at 1.25 gb! That just seems ridiculous, esp considering it's not even in a raw format anymore. Not only does it eat up hard drive space but it bogs down my machine big time.

Is there any way around this? Maybe even by way of a small sacrifice in IQ of some sort??


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tonylong
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Jun 11, 2012 22:22 |  #8

One thing you can look at is the bit depth you "need" in Photoshop. The 16-bit images do give you more "latitude". However, one thing to consider, especially with our modern Raw processors, is the fact that Raw processors are designed to take advantage of the greater bit depth and to maximize the results of processing those Raw files.

As a result, it's very possible that for working in Photoshop, and 8-bit file can suffice. You aren't losing megapixels, and in fact you may not need the full latitude of 16 bits.

This is not something I've seen a real technical discussion on, but some of us here have discussed it and some folks have been quite happy doing their Photoshop work in 8 bits. It's a discussion that comes up once in a while and it would be interesting if some image scientist did some analysis on the subject.

The other common approach is, after doing a task that is simple but combines more than one layer, you can merge those layers. That of course makes the image less "bulky". The downside is if you want to revisit the layer edits, well, no.

But, I've seen PS experts who are zipping through an image edit, and because they know what they are doing with each "chunk", I've seen them quickly merge images or even flatten the whole image before moving to the next chunk, and I'm like "What?" but I just figure that they are so familiar with what they are doing that it's no big deal.

One approach to simple common tasks that involve more than one layer could be to put together an action that does everything you want, and at the end of the action merge the involved layers so that at the end you have one layer that you only might want to say adjust the opacity of.

Aside from that, I'm not sure what else to suggest. I myself try to maximize my Raw processing and only go to Photoshop for "special" projects, and avoid cluttering up my system with a bunch of tiffs.


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Dustin ­ Mustangs
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Jun 11, 2012 22:45 as a reply to  @ tonylong's post |  #9

Super helpful post, as usual Tony. I am the same way, really don't use PS much because LR is so powerful on its own. I have been meaning to make it a more regular part of my workflow but these issues make it pretty unreasonable imo. I like the 8 bit idea and I am sure that would really cut down the file sizes. IIRC, the extra 'latitude' you speak of with 16 bit is most useful during heavy adjustments like major exposure shifts and the like. Most or all of which would ideally be done by the time PS comes into play for how I want to use it.

I am going to experiment with this a bit and will report back.


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BigBadWolfie
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Jun 11, 2012 23:00 as a reply to  @ tonylong's post |  #10

I'm struggling with the same thing as I use Nik software so I get Tiff files for every photo I work with. Furthering the problem is that I use Nik's noise reduction software and that step is better done before adjustments. After I make the LR adjustments I usually send my photos to PS for final adjustments so that either creates another TIFF or I forego the ability to go back and readjust my LR adjustments unless I simply copy the settings to the DNG file allowing me to go back and redo things quickly. Yep. I'm still trying to figure things out.




  
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Jun 12, 2012 01:24 |  #11

I do the same thing personally and it works out great. Yes TIFF files are big, but you can always delete them later. Also if I'm not mistaken you can just click on save in CS and it will go straight back to LR without having to close out CS5.

Heck sometimes when I use multiple filters using Nik Software and CS5 I end up with like 5 TIFF's. If room is a problem start stocking up on some external harddrives.


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Jun 12, 2012 08:49 |  #12

Some thoughts on my workflow:

- In Lightroom's preferences, you can change a setting so that it will send the file to Photoshop as a PSD instead of a TIFF, and it will subsequently be saved as a PSD. If you're going to be saving layers (and if I'm working in Photoshop, I probably am) then the layered PSD is likely a smaller file size than the equivalent layered TIFF. I don't know if PSD has other benefits over the TIFF.

- If you're saving your file as a PSD, make sure you have the "Maximize Compatibility" turned ON in Photoshop's preferences. This will allow Lightroom to read the saved file for the purposes of displaying the preview and exporting. It makes the filesize bigger than if Maximize Compatibility was turned off, but it'll still be smaller than a layered TIFF.

- When you save your file, make sure the "Layers" button is checked, especially if you're using the TIFF file type. Otherwise - as you've experienced - it'll flatten the file and you'll lose your layers. Go ahead and let it choose "Save as a copy" if it complains, at least the first time you save it you're saving a copy anyway, it's not going to overwrite the original raw file no matter what you do. (well, within reason of course)

- If you need to re-edit the image that has already been saved as a PSD or TIFF, just go through the same steps as editing a new raw image. Right-click, Edit In, Photoshop. Make sure you choose "Edit Original" and NOT "Edit a new copy with Lightroom adjustments." I know the former works as expected, but I don't know what happens with the latter.

- Once the image is saved as a PSD and showing in your Lightroom library, DON'T try to do any more adjustments to the exposure/colors/contra​st/etc in Lightroom. It just won't work right, at least not in my experience. You can crop and rotate, but not much else.


Like Tony mentions, I will save layers but I will usually merge them into "chunks." I sometimes work in dozens of layers but save only a handful of layers in the file. For instance, I was working on removing a table from a poolside and it took me about ten layers to get it right, but then I merged all those ten down into one "fixed table" layer. I also always flatten down any panoramas before saving them or doing further edits.

I haven't used "open as Smart Object" before; I don't know my way around Smart Objects well enough yet.


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René ­ Damkot
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Jun 13, 2012 01:06 |  #13

nathancarter wrote in post #14567641 (external link)
the layered PSD is likely a smaller file size than the equivalent layered TIFF.

Not true. At least, not enough of a difference to matter.

nathancarter wrote in post #14567641 (external link)
I don't know if PSD has other benefits over the TIFF.

No.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com …18965.msg134830​#msg134830 (external link)

I mostly do use .psd for layered files, because for me, it makes it easy to distinguish between layered (.psd) files and flattened (.tif) images in the finder.
That's about the only "advantage".


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BigBadWolfie
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Jun 13, 2012 02:23 |  #14

nathancarter wrote in post #14567641 (external link)
- Once the image is saved as a PSD and showing in your Lightroom library, DON'T try to do any more adjustments to the exposure/colors/contra​st/etc in Lightroom. It just won't work right, at least not in my experience. You can crop and rotate, but not much else.

Does PSD work differently than TIFF then? I have always saved to TIFF and LR can edit TIFF files no problem even after coming back from PS.




  
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tonylong
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Jun 13, 2012 03:51 |  #15

BigBadWolfie wrote in post #14572007 (external link)
Does PSD work differently than TIFF then? I have always saved to TIFF and LR can edit TIFF files no problem even after coming back from PS.

As far as I know tiff and psd "work the same" with the developments of recent years.


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Best way to edit with photoshop from lightroom?
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