Looking for suggestions about lighting a group shot

Hey guys + gals,

I've got a wedding next month at a tennis club, and the bride would like a large group photo ~100 guests taken on the bottom level of the back of the (see image below). I've seen a photo in which all of the members were photographed there, but it was terribly crammed with people standing in front of other people, heads and eyes bobbling up from behind.

My plan was to take the centre section, put the B+G in the center, standing on the deck obviously, with their parents + siblings next to them on that row. I might also put a few folks sitting on the ground but not directly in front of the B+G. For each of the other sections I'll put one line of folks standing on the deck, one line of folks standing on the ground (the shorter ones), and the smallest ones sitting on the ground before them.

The key point was that I was distinguishing the B+G section by NOT putting people standing or sitting directly in front of them.

Would you do differently ?

Another question. This shot will be taken at about the same time as this was taken--note the sun behind the structure causing flare. I'll obviously have to avoid that on the day (longer focal length or blocking off with hand). Would you shoot this ambient ? or would you add light. My options are two off camera speedlights.

thanks !

They want building in the shot? Why not go up the 2nd floor and shoot down on the crowd....

^ I asked them about this--and I asked them about also putting folks in the upper section. I think they're trying to match the group photo traditionally taken of the members of the club every year. In that shot they're all lined up on the bottom section. I should also point out that the fairly unattractive fencing for the tennis courts is in the reverse direction and would show up if shot from the balcony.

Have an assistant flag the light and stand on a ladder. Otherwise, shoot down from the deck.

I agree, you should be on a ladder ... a tall one

Thanks Toni -- what do folks usually flag with--and what's a DIY way to do it ?

@kmilo: if I'm on a ladder, won't the verticals of the building distort ? Maybe be 3 feet up on a latter and keep the barrel parallel with the ground ? Makes flare harder to contain, though..

Your assistant can use a black folding reflector (large one) to try to block the sun. (hope for an overcast day!) A large sheet of foamcore might work as a DIY flag, possibly even an a large umbrella might work. You may both need to be on some kind of ladder/step stool. Even being up about 2-3 feet will help you. Your sample photo shows quite a bit of distortion, getting up a few feet should help straighten out the building, and give you a clearer view of the people in the back. Also, you will need to be farther back so you are not using as wide an angle on your lens; the girl at right and pail at left are both distorted. Can you get back far enough to use about a 50-75mm or longer (on full frame) focal length?

Thanks phototeacher--I'll totally try an umbrella.

There's indeed distortion in the sample photo--I shot this only to have a formal picture of what I'm working with. I would always have the barrel of my lens parallel with the ground for this kind of shot (where there are clearly defined verticals that are structural to the image).

Can't move much further back--my back was almost hitting the fence behind me. I was also at 17mm of the 17-40.

OK, I understand the quick sample shot now.

17mm, wow that is tight. Hope it works out for you. There should be a large golf umbrella handy! Definitely try to get a couple of feet of height if you can.

Try to find a place for the camera at least three times the distance from the building and use a longer lens (three times the focal length for three times the distance) to reduce the severe perspective distortion.

Unless you can block the sun from hitting the camera's lens, you will not be able to do anything about the severe flare in the shot.

DO NOT, under any circumstances, use a filter on the lens.

If I were doing this shot I'd make sure I had a ladder that would get the camera at least 15 feet off the ground. Then I'd get the people into at least three, better four rows; one on the decking and two or three in front of it. Then shoot with at least a 35mm preferably a 50mm lens with the front of the group near the bottom of the frame. With a lens shade on the lens and some black foam sheet taped to the shade to take care of the sun.

And make sure there is enough room on the sides of the image for 8x10 cropping. That will also give you enough room for some perspective correction.

dmward wrote in post #14615844
If I were doing this shot I'd make sure I had a ladder that would get the camera at least 15 feet off the ground. Then I'd get the people into at least three, better four rows; one on the decking and two or three in front of it. Then shoot with at least a 35mm preferably a 50mm lens with the front of the group near the bottom of the frame. With a lens shade on the lens and some black foam sheet taped to the shade to take care of the sun.

And make sure there is enough room on the sides of the image for 8x10 cropping. That will also give you enough room for some perspective correction.

Christopher Steven b wrote in post #14613856
Thanks phototeacher--I'll totally try an umbrella.

There's indeed distortion in the sample photo--I shot this only to have a formal picture of what I'm working with. I would always have the barrel of my lens parallel with the ground for this kind of shot (where there are clearly defined verticals that are structural to the image).

Can't move much further back--my back was almost hitting the fence behind me. I was also at 17mm of the 17-40.

dmward - I don't think the OP will be able to shoot with anything in that range... He mentioned that there are tennis courts directly behind where the image above was taken.

Christopher Steven b wrote in post #14611554
Another question. This shot will be taken at about the same time as this was taken--note the sun behind the structure causing flare. I'll obviously have to avoid that on the day (longer focal length or blocking off with hand).

Show the bride (and her mother) your image to show her what a lousy place this is for a group shot at that time of the day. Get her to change her mind about the time if the location is firm. You do not want the sun anywhere near where it is for your trial shot.

Christopher Steven b wrote in post #14611554
Would you shoot this ambient ? or would you add light. My options are two off camera speedlights.

Speedlites would do absolutely nothing for you. If you had a bank of very large studio lights, you might be able to minimize the effect of the natural light and still get the scene lit the way you want it.

drvnbysound wrote in post #14615898
dmward - I don't think the OP will be able to shoot with anything in that range... He mentioned that there are tennis courts directly behind where the image above was taken.

Forgot about the fence.
Of course that doesn't mean the ladder couldn't be on the tennis court.

Also, 17mm on a crop camera is really closer to 24 or 28 mm on a full frame which is what I was assuming when suggesting focal length. If its necessary to use the 17mm then keep the people away from the outer edges of the covered area by at least 6 feet, presuming the guy in the picture is about 6 feet tall that would be the three center sections between the balcony supports.

Guys--thanks a lot.

So--I'll flag, I'll get up a few feet (but I'm not tilting down because I obviously don't want to screw with the verticals here), I won't use a filter so as to avoid worse flare (I've never had a filter on my lens at any point so this should be easy to follow !)--and yes, Skip, I'll have it done slightly later.

Is the flare the only reason you wouldn't suggest shooting at this time ? Suppose it's overcast ?

I think I was at about f/5.6 ISO 200-ish. If I waited a little later it's totally possible bare speedlights will be in 'useful' territory. I use my 430's to fill in scenarios where I 'place' the sun behind subjects all the time. True, though, a big group + even coverage means flashes are back.

Ok--suppose I wait until sunset and my speedlights are overwhelming the ambient. Where would you folks place them in 1-flash situations and 2-flash situations ?