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Thread started 23 Jun 2012 (Saturday) 07:59
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Disturbing trend in high schools

 
MadisonPhotography
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Jun 23, 2012 07:59 |  #1

I recently got into a discussion with a couple high school aged kids about copyright regarding things creative and of course, music. The "kids" seem to think that its just fine to pirate music, movies and photos. "Everyone does it" seems to be the argument with these folks and of course, them living in Madison, WI doesn't do much to help this.

Interesting, they want to be Socialists and derive no gain from their work. So I asked this question....."If you really want everyone to share everything equally why do you take advance placement tests, engage in activities to further your education and support particular candidates? It won't matter in the end as everyone, from the sloth to the over achiever will all live equally"...

"on no" they replied....we only take from the rich....

I find this entire trend disturbing...hopefully it is not an epidemic...


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Jun 23, 2012 08:03 |  #2

I teach a college Biology lab course, and not only have to put in disclaimers about plagiarism for text, but photographs as well. It's shocking the number that will blatantly take someone's work and reply with "it's just a picture" even after our extensive chats.


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MadisonPhotography
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Jun 23, 2012 08:10 |  #3

The idea...."if it's on the web it's free" seems to be the norm. Heck, we shoot big events and watermark the images "if you can read this the image has been stolen"...doesn't seem to matter


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Jun 23, 2012 12:42 |  #4

Somebody recently used one of my pictures on their website. I sent out a few e-mails and now just got a deposit in my paypal. Happy they were easy to deal with...but yeah...got to wonder how many times its happened that I don't even know about.


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Jun 23, 2012 13:36 |  #5

so long as the courts don't change their stance, then it really doesn't matter, they'll just have to learn the hard way.

in their defense, the youth aren't taught copyright infringement rules, they assume everything is free because they can easily get it.


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MadisonPhotography
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Jun 23, 2012 15:04 as a reply to  @ mike_311's post |  #6

Pretty much the situation in society today...."I didn't know about it so I'm not wrong"...but I bet the parents did...nothing like a gold old fashioned face to face meeting...who are the parents anyway?


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Jun 23, 2012 15:46 |  #7

MadisonPhotography wrote in post #14621524 (external link)
Pretty much the situation in society today...."I didn't know about it so I'm not wrong"...but I bet the parents did...nothing like a gold old fashioned face to face meeting...who are the parents anyway?

Those people who commonly buy one print and scan it to get all the others they want.


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MadisonPhotography
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Jun 23, 2012 16:21 as a reply to  @ RDKirk's post |  #8

They sure do. We raised our print prices higher, lost the low end shopper that created lots of work and have become more profitable in doing so.


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cdifoto
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Jun 23, 2012 16:40 |  #9

The easiest way to combat this is to not put it out there for the taking.


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Jun 23, 2012 16:40 |  #10

mike_311 wrote in post #14621264 (external link)
so long as the courts don't change their stance, then it really doesn't matter, they'll just have to learn the hard way.

in their defense, the youth aren't taught copyright infringement rules, they assume everything is free because they can easily get it.

The courts and the law are actually very much in the photographer's corner.

The compensatory and punitive monies involved for knowingly infringing another's copyright would generally cost little Bobbie or Susie a couple of years worth of burger flipping income. Mommy and Daddy would certainly get a big fat wake up call as well.

The real question is: How much do you value your photography? Are you willing to do wat is required to fully use the system to your advantage?


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Codda
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Jun 23, 2012 17:17 |  #11

MadisonPhotography wrote in post #14620245 (external link)
I recently got into a discussion with a couple high school aged kids about copyright regarding things creative and of course, music. The "kids" seem to think that its just fine to pirate music, movies and photos. "Everyone does it" seems to be the argument with these folks and of course, them living in Madison, WI doesn't do much to help this.

Interesting, they want to be Socialists and derive no gain from their work. So I asked this question....."If you really want everyone to share everything equally why do you take advance placement tests, engage in activities to further your education and support particular candidates? It won't matter in the end as everyone, from the sloth to the over achiever will all live equally"...

"on no" they replied....we only take from the rich....

I find this entire trend disturbing...hopefully it is not an epidemic...

It's the basis for the entire OWS mentality...




  
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RDKirk
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Jun 23, 2012 18:04 |  #12

FlyingPhotog wrote in post #14621857 (external link)
The courts and the law are actually very much in the photographer's corner.

The compensatory and punitive monies involved for knowingly infringing another's copyright would generally cost little Bobbie or Susie a couple of years worth of burger flipping income. Mommy and Daddy would certainly get a big fat wake up call as well.

The real question is: How much do you value your photography? Are you willing to do wat is required to fully use the system to your advantage?

The US copyright office is holding discussions on a "copyright small claims court." Everyone agrees there should be one, but even so, hammering out the details will take a few years.


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MJPhotos24
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Jun 24, 2012 01:59 |  #13

MadisonPhotography wrote in post #14620245 (external link)
I recently got into a discussion with a couple high school aged kids about copyright regarding things creative and of course, music. The "kids" seem to think that its just fine to pirate music, movies and photos. "Everyone does it" seems to be the argument with these folks and of course, them living in Madison, WI doesn't do much to help this.

Interesting, they want to be Socialists and derive no gain from their work. So I asked this question....."If you really want everyone to share everything equally why do you take advance placement tests, engage in activities to further your education and support particular candidates? It won't matter in the end as everyone, from the sloth to the over achiever will all live equally"...

"on no" they replied....we only take from the rich....

I find this entire trend disturbing...hopefully it is not an epidemic...

Madison where the fight for workers rights is happening is making it worse, seriously?

Love how they want to be socialists, really wish people would learn what that word means before throwing it out there. Really think these kids want that, can guarantee no, but seems you brought your political views too far into it, isn't there a rule against that here? That old exam cliche is nowhere near relevant any time I've ever seen it used, taking two things not related and trying to fit it into an agenda...kids, parents, well almost nobody associates copying images or music with THEIR work in an office or out doing some other service like carpentry, plumbing, etc.

jimmy_beaner wrote in post #14620260 (external link)
I teach a college Biology lab course, and not only have to put in disclaimers about plagiarism for text, but photographs as well. It's shocking the number that will blatantly take someone's work and reply with "it's just a picture" even after our extensive chats.

Funny in high school they teach the opposite in two of the big three (music, images, text) telling the kids they can use any images and music they want for projects but can not show any signs of plagiarism. The teachers do it all the time because it's fair use, for many college classes it is as well - many of mine did in high school and college. Only time remember it not being allowed I believe was for the Masters thesis, if I remember correctly but could be wrong - but since it could be published believe they said all original content and nothing at all "borrowed".

MadisonPhotography wrote in post #14621524 (external link)
Pretty much the situation in society today...."I didn't know about it so I'm not wrong"...but I bet the parents did...nothing like a gold old fashioned face to face meeting...who are the parents anyway?

Parents know copyright? Since when? They grew up in an age that they almost had to buy the record, yes record, or cassette but still found a way to make copies all the time by taping it off the radio, had a dual recorder and borrowed from their friends, went to the library and made copies instead of buying multiple copies of the paper or book - nothing has changed except the technology has made it much easier for them to do it.

I run into media directors and SID's all the time that don't know copyrights, there's PLENTY of photographers on here who don't know the first thing about copyright laws, so thinking a parent who works in a cubicle or digging a ditch will know copyright law is assuming a lot!

Codda wrote in post #14621962 (external link)
It's the basis for the entire OWS mentality...

If you believe that's what it's about I have some land for sale in Florida, prime real estate!

....

Photography is heading the way of music, sorry to the old timers but things are changing. Complaining about it does nothing and definitely not going to change a thing. The "trend" (if you can call something that has been evolving for 50+ years a trend) will continue to grow and get worse as technology progresses. Seen it in music first hand and you see it in photography now a few years behind. Sure there will always be bands that make money, just like always be photographers who do as well, but the old way just isn't the same anymore and not going to go back!


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Jun 24, 2012 08:50 |  #14

cdifoto wrote in post #14621856 (external link)
The easiest way to combat this is to not put it out there for the taking.

At least until after it's been paid for.


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JDPhotoGuy
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Jun 24, 2012 12:06 |  #15

MJPhotos24 wrote in post #14623497 (external link)
Photography is heading the way of music, sorry to the old timers but things are changing. Complaining about it does nothing and definitely not going to change a thing. The "trend" (if you can call something that has been evolving for 50+ years a trend) will continue to grow and get worse as technology progresses. Seen it in music first hand and you see it in photography now a few years behind. Sure there will always be bands that make money, just like always be photographers who do as well, but the old way just isn't the same anymore and not going to go back!

That's a horrible analogy... Music isn't hurting at all due to "technology" and bad singers with no talent have always been there. They have creative marketing and networking skills that trump their lack of talent. Musicians make an average of 2.4% off or record sales with the bulk going to dishonest record labels. The whole pirating music (even recording off the radio back in the 70s) got as big as it did because bands encouraged it as a way to get back at the record labels for pushing the contracts that signed the artist's rights away. The musicians didn't care. Their money is made on concerts and pirating music only helped their ticket sales.

MJPhotos24 wrote in post #14623497 (external link)
Funny in high school they teach the opposite in two of the big three (music, images, text) telling the kids they can use any images and music they want for projects but can not show any signs of plagiarism. The teachers do it all the time because it's fair use, for many college classes it is as well - many of mine did in high school and college. Only time remember it not being allowed I believe was for the Masters thesis, if I remember correctly but could be wrong - but since it could be published believe they said all original content and nothing at all "borrowed".

Well they kinda have to... it's kids after all and public education being mandatory they can't exactly go around telling kids "you have to pay to do your homework". But then again, that's not really comparable to photography and piracy since it's usage wasn't for any personal gain and only for educational purposes. If you wanted to start holding people to that level of, in the words of Daffy Duck, "it's mine, all mine!", then you'd have to arrest every kid who ever drew a picture of Superman and hung it on their fridge.

The lynchpin that's missing here with this whole tired argument of copyrights, and technology breeding GWCs, is the increasingly rare commodity of Common Sense. Not directed at the person I quoted and nothing but my commentary to add to this discussion, but people somewhere along the way forgot how to act like adults. Yes, there will always be people who think because it's there, and they can right click it and save it, that it's free... I think if we were all honest about it, everyone here has been guilty of it from time to time. Being guilty of it myself, have I cost any photographer money? Of course not. My interest in the images and usage is so limited that I could and would have done without it had it been harder to acquire. It's like photocopying a library book and then reading it. Is it technically illegal? Well sure. But here's where the common sense comes into play... What's the difference between reading a photocopy of a library book and going and checking it out then reading it? Nothing. Thus, copying the book is moot as long as it's just for personal use. Much the same can be said with music and images these days. What's the difference between playing a song off your hard drive and going to Rhapsody and playing it? Either way you have free access to it.

Same with most of the photos people steal.
"Well where was it stolen from?"
"Off my flickr account! :O"
Well no freakin' wonder... Next question
"Do you ever pull your photos down once you post them online?"
"Well, not usually..."
"So you're complaining about someone posting an image of yours on their Facebook feed that, for all intents and purposes, they can look at any time they want for the perceivable future on your Flickr account for free and that's ok...?"
"Well yeah..."
"Do you tell everyone that your images can only be viewed on a Mac computer?"
"That's just stupid..."

Now of course, this doesn't apply to the blatant thefts... Which in my opinion only applies to the ones stolen to advertise and promote. The couple that print out duplicates themselves (which btw I don't feel sorry for the photographers that let this happen to begin with - watermark until paid and personal photos by me are always sold with lifetime usage rights and priced accordingly because I fully expect them to make their own copies) does not bother me. If it bothers you, don't deliver digital copies and deal with the fallout from that. But as far as I can remember, I've never seen one newspaper staffer in a restaurant with their papers on the table for public consumption threatening to sue the owner because everyone who looked at the paper didn't pay them for it and it wasn't "licensed" to the restaurant for that type of usage. It would be silly and anal to do so and is equally when it comes to some photographers expectation of control over their work once it leaves their hands.


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