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Thread started 23 Jun 2012 (Saturday) 07:59
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Disturbing trend in high schools

 
mtimber
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Jul 16, 2012 15:47 |  #526

kcbrown wrote in post #14725272 (external link)
No, but you claim to subscribe to it, which means you claim to at least know something about it.

But if your knowledge about it is incomplete, then you cannot ever be sure about the rightness or wrongness of something, because it's possible that the something in question is something that an exception is made for in the absolute moral standard you subscribe to.

We all know something about it, otherwise we wouldn't be able to argue the concepts of moral right and moral wrong.

Without absolute morality, you cannot even argue morality...

Without absolute morality, there is no concept of goodness or badness...


That by itself proves its very existance. :-)


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mtimber
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Jul 16, 2012 15:49 |  #527

DutchinCLE wrote in post #14725286 (external link)
Again, you bring a very extreme example. More realistic would be: for us to eat a steak can be thought of as immoral by several million Hindu's..
Yet we still serve up a nice steak with a beer, and enjoy it.

It is a useful example.

It is a genuine example.

Therefore it is a legitimate example.


So what would you have done?

Would you have ordered the neighbour or the vegetarian option?

:-)


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kcbrown
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Jul 16, 2012 15:49 |  #528

mtimber wrote in post #14725305 (external link)
We all know something about it, otherwise we wouldn't be able to argue the concepts of moral right and moral wrong.

But without absolute knowledge of this absolute standard, you simply cannot be sure that any given act is moral or immoral, can you?

Without absolute morality, you cannot even argue morality...

Sure you can. Morality is still morality, even if it is not defined by some source that is external to man.

Without absolute morality, there is no concept of goodness or badness...

Of course there is, from the point of view of any given individual.


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DutchinCLE
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Jul 16, 2012 15:50 |  #529

mtimber wrote in post #14725314 (external link)
Would you have ordered the neighbour or the vegetarian option?

:-)

Do you eat steak, and be found immoral by millions of hindu's? :)


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mtimber
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Jul 16, 2012 15:52 |  #530

kcbrown wrote in post #14725194 (external link)
The food in question most certainly rightfully belonged to another party.

Who did it belong to?


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kcbrown
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Jul 16, 2012 15:53 |  #531

mtimber wrote in post #14725328 (external link)
Who did it belong to?

Farmers, ranchers, and whoever else happened to reside in the area at the time.


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mtimber
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Jul 16, 2012 15:54 |  #532

kcbrown wrote in post #14725316 (external link)
But without absolute knowledge of this absolute standard, you simply cannot be sure that any given act is moral or immoral, can you?

Sure you can. Morality is still morality, even if it is not defined by some source that is external to man.

Of course there is, from the point of view of any given individual.

Without the concept of Absolute Morality, the concepts of "goodness" and "badness" cannot exist.


So by simple logical deduction it is clear that Absolute Morality exists.

Of course that predicates the Laws of Logic, but we won't go there. ;-)a


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Jul 16, 2012 15:56 |  #533

kcbrown wrote in post #14725316 (external link)
Of course there is, from the point of view of any given individual.

Really?

You decide that "goodness" is the right to keep your car.

Your neigbour decides that "goodness" is the right to take your car.


Which one is right?


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Jul 16, 2012 15:56 |  #534

DutchinCLE wrote in post #14725321 (external link)
Do you eat steak, and be found immoral by millions of hindu's? :)

I am a vegetarian, so suspect I would have ended up in the cooking pot for my heretical tendencies...


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kcbrown
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Jul 16, 2012 15:58 |  #535

mtimber wrote in post #14725346 (external link)
Without the concept of Absolute Morality, the concepts of "goodness" and "badness" cannot exist.

Please show this to be the case. I'm skeptical.

So by simple logical deduction it is clear that Absolute Morality exists.

I am not arguing the existence of an absolute moral standard (some people, like yourself, obviously subscribe to such a thing). That such a thing actually exists independently of man is something I cannot disprove.

But that such a thing exists does not automatically imply that it is internally consistent, nor does it imply that it is consistent with the real world.


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Jul 16, 2012 15:58 |  #536

kcbrown wrote in post #14725341 (external link)
Farmers, ranchers, and whoever else happened to reside in the area at the time.

Then they should not have taken it.

The populace in war zones are often driven to starvation because the soldiers steal their food.


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mtimber
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Jul 16, 2012 16:02 |  #537

kcbrown wrote in post #14725368 (external link)
Please show this to be the case. I'm skeptical.

I am not arguing the existence of an absolute moral standard (some people, like yourself, obviously subscribe to such a thing). That such a thing actually exists independently of man is something I cannot disprove.

But that such a thing exists does not automatically imply that it is internally consistent, nor does it imply that it is consistent with the real world.


The concept of good or bad can only be defined, if there is an absolute standard to measure it by.

Good and bad can be defined, therefore such a standard intrinsically exists.


Its internal consistency is supplied by the fact that without it, the concepts of goodness and badness would not exist.


You'll be late for everything because the light was right and the action was good (magoosmc)

  
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kcbrown
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Jul 16, 2012 16:03 |  #538

mtimber wrote in post #14725354 (external link)
Really?

You decide that "goodness" is the right to keep your car.

Your neigbour decides that "goodness" is the right to take your car.


Which one is right?

From my point of view, I'm right. From my neighbor's point of view, he's right.

From a third party's point of view, we might both be wrong!

But this scenario is one we can use to explore some of these questions in greater detail.

Suppose the reason my neighbor believes it right to steal my car is that his is broken down and his wife has suffered a medical emergency that requires him to take her to the hospital right now or she'll surely die. He can't wait for the ambulance to show up, I'm out of town, and nobody else is close enough for him to carry his wife to.

Is it still wrong for him to steal my car?


"There are some things that money can't buy, but they aren't Ls and aren't worth having" -- Shooter-boy
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kcbrown
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Jul 16, 2012 16:06 |  #539

mtimber wrote in post #14725389 (external link)
The concept of good or bad can only be defined, if there is an absolute standard to measure it by.

What do you mean, here, by the term "absolute"? Be precise. It's important.


"There are some things that money can't buy, but they aren't Ls and aren't worth having" -- Shooter-boy
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mtimber
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Jul 16, 2012 16:07 |  #540

Look at it this way.

Empirical scientific experimention can only be practiced if the laws that are used to measure the experiment are absolute.

Without those laws in place, it would be impossible to test anything as you would not be able to control any aspect of the experiment.


Imagine turning a bunsen burner on to testing the boiling point of water and the flames came out, and water evaporated on Monday, but froze on Wednesday.

Science would be impossible without those laws that exist in the universe.


Morality operates on the same principles, without absolute standards, morality cannot be measured and therefore cannot exist.


"I have applied for jobs at National Geographic, Sports Illustrated and Playboy. The phone should start ringing any minute now" (Curtis N)

  
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