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Thread started 26 Jun 2012 (Tuesday) 19:30
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Q: 7D Anti Aliasing "softness" clarification

 
billinvegas
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Jun 26, 2012 19:30 |  #1

I've noticed this statement that was posted in this forum

"7D images are soft... the camera has a strong anti-alias filter, necessary to prevent moire effects with such an ultra-dense sensor, and images require more sharpening than some other cameras"

Are there any recommendations for "in camera" versus post-processing?

I primarily shoot RAW+JPEG, nothing going to print, so I'm using the "medium" sizes,
and "standard" for picture profile...

I'm using Lightroom to post process (still learning the ins and outs of the software)

thx


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billinvegas
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Jun 26, 2012 19:42 |  #2

sorry,
posting before searching - my bad...


5D MkIII / 7D Gripped
24-105 L / 70-200 F4 IS L / Sigma 70-200 2.8 OS / 50 1.8
EFS 17-55 / EFS 18-135
D 700 /D7000
24-85 / 18-200 / 18-105 / 70-300

  
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RobDickinson
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Jun 26, 2012 19:50 |  #3

Utter crap, you can get 100% sharp images out of the 7d if you use the right lens and technique.


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amfoto1
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Jun 26, 2012 20:04 |  #4

If you aren't printing your pics, what are you doing with them? Output size and use decides how much resolution and sharpening is needed.

Shooting RAW + JPEGs is a good learning tool, since you are relatively unfamiliar with Lightroom.

First, understand that all DSLRs shoot RAW all the time. And, the RAW is essentially a TIFF with proprietary information added by the camera manufacturer, a bunch of "tags" about white balance, sharpening, contrast, and more, plus an embedded "preview" JPEG (which is what you actually view when you look at the image on the camera's LCD monitor... it can't directly display a RAW image).

When you set the camera to make a JPEG (either just a JPEG, or a JPEG + RAW), the camera is processing the image immediately, according to the guidelines laid out in the Picture Style profile you've selected. The camera throws away all the extra data, that's left over after making that conversion. However, saving RAW + JPEG, it stores both.

As far as the RAWs are concerned, LR ignores the Picture Profile you set in the camera, just shows you the RAW files in all their naked, unprocessed glory. The JPEG, on the other hand, is essentially an in-camera RAW conversion that gives you an idea how the camera handles the "post processing" by some standardized formula (the Picture Styles), what the image might look like. You can experiment with the RAW files in the LR Develop module, compare them to the JPEGs coming from the camera, and when you feel your conversions there are better than what you are seeing out of the camera in the JPEGs, then you can stop shooting RAW + JPEG and just shoot RAW files.

If you are happy with the sharpness of the JPEGs you are getting now, you don't have to do anything. If you'd like them to be sharper or less sharp, you can edit the Standard profile in the camera and increase or decrease how much sharpening is being applied.

As far as the RAW files are concerned, it doesn't matter. The Picture Style profile doesn't do anything to the RAW file, as far as Lightroom is concerned. But when you make a conversion from the RAW, you are going to need to decide how much additional sharpening is needed, depending upon what you are outputting.

The 7D was the first of the 18MP cameras. I think it's possible that Canon dialed up sharpening or dialed back the strength of the AA filter in the later 18MP models (T2i/550D, 60D, T3i/600D and now the T4i/650D). You don't see as many complaints about "soft images" out of those cameras. Of course, it also could be that people using those cameras are more inclined to shoot JPEGs and/or that they less frequently use or see the RAW files. Or, maybe it's because 7D shooters are more likely to have experience with previous models that didn't have such strong AA filters and produced images that didn't need as much sharpening.

Something similar happened when the 5DII came out. It has a stronger AA filter over it's 21MP sensor than the earlier 13MP 5D classic had. In fact, the original 5D has one of the weakest AA filters of any Canon camera. So the impression was that the classic's images were "sharper" and "more detailed". Though really they weren't.

But, it really doesn't matter. The point is that though the 7D images appear "soft" in their RAW form, they actually have a lot of fine detail. It's just a matter of dialing in the sharpness needed to bring it out. How much is needed up to you and what you are planning to do with the image. I would guess-timate I sharpen my 7D images 40% to 80% more than I did 50D images before, on average.

It always comes down to output... how you are using the images. If viewing them on computer only, it's possible that not a lot of sharpening is needed. Typical monitors just don't resolve all that much detail and the best are about 100 pixels per inch. A print on high quality, smooth matte paper - on the other hand - might be able to resolve 170, 240 or even 300 pixels per inch. Some papers even call for over 400 pixels per inch, optimally.


Alan Myers (external link) "Walk softly and carry a big lens."
5DII, 7DII, 7D, M5 & others. 10-22mm, Meike 12/2.8,Tokina 12-24/4, 20/2.8, EF-M 22/2, TS 24/3.5L, 24-70/2.8L, 28/1.8, 28-135 IS (x2), TS 45/2.8, 50/1.4, Sigma 56/1.4, Tamron 60/2.0, 70-200/4L IS, 70-200/2.8 IS, 85/1.8, Tamron 90/2.5, 100/2.8 USM, 100-400L II, 135/2L, 180/3.5L, 300/4L IS, 300/2.8L IS, 500/4L IS, EF 1.4X II, EF 2X II. Flashes, strobes & various access. - FLICKR (external link)

  
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Tsmith
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Jun 26, 2012 20:17 |  #5

RobDickinson wrote in post #14636750 (external link)
Utter crap, you can get 100% sharp images out of the 7d if you use the right lens and technique.

Well stated! I just thought I had a pretty decent set of lens until I purchased an EF 400mm f/5.6L and attached it to my 7D.

This one about a 50% crop at ISO 800, wide open at f/5.6 (handheld). For all, can you see the spider web in the branches? Oh yeah, no noise reduction software was used either.

IMAGE: http://www.pbase.com/smith_xt/image/134405888.jpg



  
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amfoto1
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Jun 26, 2012 20:19 |  #6

RobDickinson wrote in post #14636750 (external link)
Utter crap, you can get 100% sharp images out of the 7d if you use the right lens and technique.

Why are you getting defensive?

No one was suggesting that 7D images are "bad" in any way... Nor were we saying that you couldn't get really nice sharp images out of the camera.

Personally, I've been using a pair of 7Ds for over two years now, and am still quite happy with them.

What billignvegas was asking and we are discussing is how to handle 7D files in-camera or in post-processing, how to optimize them and get the best out of them.

So your 7D RAW files aren't softer than RAW files from other cameras? You don't find they need more sharpening than RAW from your 5DII or any other Canon models you've used in the past?

A lot of people seemed to notice it, including me. And there have been tons of "my 7D images look soft" posts here on POTN. There was a lot of of speculation about it at first, but finally folks seemed to agree that it was simply that Canon used a particularlly strong AA filter on the camera... maybe stronger than was really needed. And that some extra sharpening in post processing was all that was needed. I can only speak for myself, and note that I'm using the same lenses that I used before 7D, some of which are pretty good. But it doesn't really matters, just use any lens but try to compare apples to apples... Use any lens so long as it's tthe same lens on 50D or 40D or whatever model, abd on 7D. Then compare the RAWs from both.


Alan Myers (external link) "Walk softly and carry a big lens."
5DII, 7DII, 7D, M5 & others. 10-22mm, Meike 12/2.8,Tokina 12-24/4, 20/2.8, EF-M 22/2, TS 24/3.5L, 24-70/2.8L, 28/1.8, 28-135 IS (x2), TS 45/2.8, 50/1.4, Sigma 56/1.4, Tamron 60/2.0, 70-200/4L IS, 70-200/2.8 IS, 85/1.8, Tamron 90/2.5, 100/2.8 USM, 100-400L II, 135/2L, 180/3.5L, 300/4L IS, 300/2.8L IS, 500/4L IS, EF 1.4X II, EF 2X II. Flashes, strobes & various access. - FLICKR (external link)

  
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RobDickinson
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Jun 26, 2012 20:35 |  #7

amfoto1 wrote in post #14636869 (external link)
So your 7D RAW files aren't softer than RAW files from other cameras? You don't find they need more sharpening than RAW from your 5DII or any other Canon models you've used in the past?

No , I dont. I dont often apply any sharpening to web sized images from my 7D.

For example, this shot, 100-400L:

IMAGE: http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c172/robdickinson/IMG_1782.jpg

Looks like this at 100% (dpp default left, canon dpp dlo default right.
IMAGE: http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c172/robdickinson/Untitled-1-2.jpg

www.HeroWorkshops.com (external link) - www.rjd.co.nz (external link) - www.zarphag.com (external link)
Gear: A7r, 6D, Irix 15mmf2.4 , canon 16-35f4L, Canon 24mm TS-E f3.5 mk2, Sigma 50mm art, 70-200f2.8L, 400L. Lee filters, iOptron IPano, Emotimo TB3, Markins, Feisol, Novoflex, Sirui. etc.

  
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amfoto1
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Jun 26, 2012 20:48 |  #8

No , I dont. I dont often apply any sharpening to web sized images from my 7D.

Using Canon DPP, unless you are specifically going into the software and turing off sharpening... yes you are applying sharpening. By default whatever is called for in the Picture Style you have set in the camera is automatically applied to the image by DPP.. unless you turn it off or dial it up or down. (Not that much is needed for low resolution web images.)

OP is using Lightroom... That's different. It ignores the Picture Style tags in RAW files.


Alan Myers (external link) "Walk softly and carry a big lens."
5DII, 7DII, 7D, M5 & others. 10-22mm, Meike 12/2.8,Tokina 12-24/4, 20/2.8, EF-M 22/2, TS 24/3.5L, 24-70/2.8L, 28/1.8, 28-135 IS (x2), TS 45/2.8, 50/1.4, Sigma 56/1.4, Tamron 60/2.0, 70-200/4L IS, 70-200/2.8 IS, 85/1.8, Tamron 90/2.5, 100/2.8 USM, 100-400L II, 135/2L, 180/3.5L, 300/4L IS, 300/2.8L IS, 500/4L IS, EF 1.4X II, EF 2X II. Flashes, strobes & various access. - FLICKR (external link)

  
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Overread
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Jun 26, 2012 20:50 |  #9

I suggest anyone saying that RAW files are not "soft" goes into their RAW processing software and disables any sharpening its adding. By default all RAW processors apply a degree of sharpening to RAW files from the start - generally this is called "capture sharpening" and is mostly there to counter the AA filter on the digital camera and to provide the photographer with a clear photo to work from.

Note also that the larger MP sensors always look a bit softer at 100% (where almost all sharpening views are made during the process) compared to smaller MP sensors (excluding fullframe - I'm not sure how that compares directly). This is because more MP means more pixels and thus a 100% crop from a 7D is much more enlarged over say a 40D.

So there are two areas where the camera can show softer results - neither is saying that the camera is "BAD" or "SOFT" simply that when compared to others the results can appear (at 100%) to be softer. This is mostly to guide people toward realising that what works on one camera might not work as well on another and that you might have to tweak your process or amounts at various stages.

Also if you're comparing websized photos to others - eh - you'll have a hard time seeing out of camera differences simply because even basic editing on a web resize can easily result in equally sharp looking photos - its a very forgiving view.


Tools of the trade: Canon 400D, Canon 7D, Canon 70-200mm f2.8 IS L M2, Sigma 120-300mm f2.8 OS, Canon MPE 65mm f2.8 macro, Sigma 150mm f2.8 macro, Tamron 24-70mm f2.4, Sigma 70mm f2.8 macro, Sigma 8-16mm f4.5-5.6, Raynox DCR 250, loads of teleconverters and a flashy thingy too
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RobDickinson
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Jun 26, 2012 20:50 |  #10

Yes , as I said default, ACR has default sharpening too.

How much extra work is involved in accepting the default sharpening?


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Jun 26, 2012 20:57 |  #11

amfoto1 wrote in post #14636990 (external link)
OP is using Lightroom... That's different. It ignores the Picture Style tags in RAW files.

Yep - though Adobe RAW does apply a value of default sharpening unless you adjust it not to.


Tools of the trade: Canon 400D, Canon 7D, Canon 70-200mm f2.8 IS L M2, Sigma 120-300mm f2.8 OS, Canon MPE 65mm f2.8 macro, Sigma 150mm f2.8 macro, Tamron 24-70mm f2.4, Sigma 70mm f2.8 macro, Sigma 8-16mm f4.5-5.6, Raynox DCR 250, loads of teleconverters and a flashy thingy too
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TeamSpeed
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Jun 26, 2012 23:18 |  #12

amfoto1 wrote in post #14636990 (external link)
Using Canon DPP, unless you are specifically going into the software and turing off sharpening... yes you are applying sharpening. By default whatever is called for in the Picture Style you have set in the camera is automatically applied to the image by DPP.. unless you turn it off or dial it up or down. (Not that much is needed for low resolution web images.)

OP is using Lightroom... That's different. It ignores the Picture Style tags in RAW files.

I post process 7d images very similiarly to how I processed 40d and 50d images, the only extra processing I do is in the careful handling of noise. USM values are identical for certain.


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jhayesvw
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Jun 26, 2012 23:42 as a reply to  @ TeamSpeed's post |  #13

for my 60d (using my same 100-400) I apply about 30% more sharpening than I did with my T1i (similar sensor to 50d).
Perhaps I dont need to, but it sure seems like I do.
I guess I could tripod my 100-400 and then do side by side shots with both bodies but I have noticed more sharpening required.

Its not hard to do. I just move the slider over 1cm more.
I will say that my jpgs look MUCH better SOOC on my 60d than they did on my t1i.
Ive considered shooting jpg only but cant bring myself to lose the white balance control among other things.

I would like to have a 7d and the "soft" images would not stop me from getting one.
I find the crop sensors to help equalize the "reach" of the expensive telephoto lenses.

I cant afford a $7k 500L so my 100-400 or a 400-5.6 gives me a similar FOV for MUCH less than a 1d4 and 500L combo. Not that my images are quite as nice but I take what I can get.

But then I think, I could do a 1d4 + 400 5.6_ 1.4 TC and still have AF and get even more reach than a 7d and 400 5.6.

Im rambling now. sorry. ahahha



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peezie
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Jun 27, 2012 00:00 |  #14

amfoto1 wrote in post #14636808 (external link)
First, understand that all DSLRs shoot RAW all the time. And, the RAW is essentially a TIFF with proprietary information added by the camera manufacturer, a bunch of "tags" about white balance, sharpening, contrast, and more, plus an embedded "preview" JPEG (which is what you actually view when you look at the image on the camera's LCD monitor... it can't directly display a RAW image).

When you set the camera to make a JPEG (either just a JPEG, or a JPEG + RAW), the camera is processing the image immediately, according to the guidelines laid out in the Picture Style profile you've selected. The camera throws away all the extra data, that's left over after making that conversion. However, saving RAW + JPEG, it stores both.

As far as the RAWs are concerned, LR ignores the Picture Profile you set in the camera, just shows you the RAW files in all their naked, unprocessed glory. The JPEG, on the other hand, is essentially an in-camera RAW conversion that gives you an idea how the camera handles the "post processing" by some standardized formula (the Picture Styles), what the image might look like. You can experiment with the RAW files in the LR Develop module, compare them to the JPEGs coming from the camera, and when you feel your conversions there are better than what you are seeing out of the camera in the JPEGs, then you can stop shooting RAW + JPEG and just shoot RAW files.

If you are happy with the sharpness of the JPEGs you are getting now, you don't have to do anything. If you'd like them to be sharper or less sharp, you can edit the Standard profile in the camera and increase or decrease how much sharpening is being applied.

As far as the RAW files are concerned, it doesn't matter. The Picture Style profile doesn't do anything to the RAW file, as far as Lightroom is concerned. But when you make a conversion from the RAW, you are going to need to decide how much additional sharpening is needed, depending upon what you are outputting.

The 7D was the first of the 18MP cameras. I think it's possible that Canon dialed up sharpening or dialed back the strength of the AA filter in the later 18MP models (T2i/550D, 60D, T3i/600D and now the T4i/650D). You don't see as many complaints about "soft images" out of those cameras. Of course, it also could be that people using those cameras are more inclined to shoot JPEGs and/or that they less frequently use or see the RAW files. Or, maybe it's because 7D shooters are more likely to have experience with previous models that didn't have such strong AA filters and produced images that didn't need as much sharpening.

Something similar happened when the 5DII came out. It has a stronger AA filter over it's 21MP sensor than the earlier 13MP 5D classic had. In fact, the original 5D has one of the weakest AA filters of any Canon camera. So the impression was that the classic's images were "sharper" and "more detailed". Though really they weren't.

But, it really doesn't matter. The point is that though the 7D images appear "soft" in their RAW form, they actually have a lot of fine detail. It's just a matter of dialing in the sharpness needed to bring it out. How much is needed up to you and what you are planning to do with the image. I would guess-timate I sharpen my 7D images 40% to 80% more than I did 50D images before, on average.

It always comes down to output... how you are using the images. If viewing them on computer only, it's possible that not a lot of sharpening is needed. Typical monitors just don't resolve all that much detail and the best are about 100 pixels per inch. A print on high quality, smooth matte paper - on the other hand - might be able to resolve 170, 240 or even 300 pixels per inch. Some papers even call for over 400 pixels per inch, optimally.

Im new here but, this is a very interesting read. Thanks




  
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Delija
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Jun 27, 2012 00:24 |  #15

billinvegas wrote in post #14636659 (external link)
I primarily shoot RAW+JPEG, nothing going to print, so I'm using the "medium" sizes,
and "standard" for picture profile...

Am I missing something? Why would anyone buy a camera like the 7D (plus lenses, plus software like "Lightroom" and never print?


Wow, what a nice picture! You must have a really great camera!

  
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Q: 7D Anti Aliasing "softness" clarification
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