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Thread started 17 Jul 2012 (Tuesday) 03:01
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Are photographers hypocritical sometimes?

 
Miki ­ G
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Jul 17, 2012 03:01 |  #1

I've seen lots of threads regarding copyright infringement on this & other forums and often wondered, are the photographers who are complaining about their images been used by others actually hypocrites? Have they ever copied music etc for their own personal collection without paying for it's use?
I was recently discussing this issue with a group of people & all admitted that they had recorded music and copied photos, videos etc at some point in the past. I was also recently viewing a photographic exhibition from a local club, when I noticed a lot of the people who were attending using their phones to photograph the images on display even though there were signs posted to say photography or video was not allowed. It seems that this is just an accepted practice by the public.




  
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Jul 17, 2012 04:30 |  #2

Yes you are right and yes it is wrong to make illegal copies of music/movies etc for your own use. However there is often a difference in the case of photos. When photographers post complaining of infringement it is often a business/commercial news outlet that is using the images without permission/paying. I think it is a lot worse when you are doing it for commercial gain.


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Jul 17, 2012 05:24 |  #3

Miki G wrote in post #14727936 (external link)
I've seen lots of threads regarding copyright infringement on this & other forums and often wondered, are the photographers who are complaining about their images been used by others actually hypocrites? Have they ever copied music etc for their own personal collection without paying for it's use?

Nope.

When I moved to a new lab at work the guys there couldn't believe that I'd refuse their offers of free MP3 rips of the latest music CDs, but I'd actually pay money for the CD. Then they thought I was hypocritical as well as stupid when they found that I would rip the CDs to MP3 myself (which was illegal in the bad old days). The concept of illegal vs immoral seemed too difficult for them to grasp. Accepting their free music was illegal and immoral. Buying the CD and ripping it for my own use was illegal but not immoral.


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Thomas ­ Campbell
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Jul 17, 2012 09:25 |  #4

I buy all my music from Amazon. Having a dad that is an intellectual property attorney is good reason to not steal other people's work.

The real hypocrites I see are the guys that are putting copyrighted music on their website. Drives me crazy.


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Jul 17, 2012 09:48 as a reply to  @ Thomas Campbell's post |  #5

It's a form of cheating, commonly reserved for the amoral among us.


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Jul 17, 2012 10:35 |  #6

spotify, no need to buy music ever... :)


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RichSoansPhotos
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Jul 17, 2012 10:55 |  #7
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Miki G wrote in post #14727936 (external link)
I've seen lots of threads regarding copyright infringement on this & other forums and often wondered, are the photographers who are complaining about their images been used by others actually hypocrites? Have they ever copied music etc for their own personal collection without paying for it's use?
I was recently discussing this issue with a group of people & all admitted that they had recorded music and copied photos, videos etc at some point in the past. I was also recently viewing a photographic exhibition from a local club, when I noticed a lot of the people who were attending using their phones to photograph the images on display even though there were signs posted to say photography or video was not allowed. It seems that this is just an accepted practice by the public.


there is a discussion on the music photographer's facebook page where I had to really snap at a photographer for wanting to illegally copy music because of a piece a paper some musicians management want them to sign before going into the pits (photography pit)

The piece of paper really makes no sense at all i.e. not really legal in a way. So this photographer "threaten" to download their music illegally "to make a statement" about what the musician was doing. Anyway I told them not to do so. Whether they listened to me is another thing.




  
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Tedder
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Jul 17, 2012 11:01 |  #8

Miki G wrote in post #14727936 (external link)
I've seen lots of threads regarding copyright infringement on this & other forums and often wondered, are the photographers who are complaining about their images been used by others actually hypocrites...?

Sometimes, yes. I have, for instance, seen photographers post images that were all but obliterated by massive copyright notices who then violated copyright laws by quoting written material at length.

It's not all that difficult to find examples of this double standard at work.



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rick_reno
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Jul 17, 2012 11:03 |  #9

i have never copied music, video or a photo. i've been offered copies of movies by neighbors to watch and i refuse, simply telling them i don't want something illegal in my house.




  
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ceremus
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Jul 17, 2012 11:34 |  #10

It's a little sticky to compare the copyright situations of music to that of individual photographers or other small artists, at least if you're trying to judge it from a moral stance. When you're talking about a major signed artist, a lot of them couldn't possibly care less whether people pirate their music or not. They don't make any sort of significant money from those sales, it primarily goes to the labels. If the artists want to actually make any money they have to tour.

Take what Trent Reznor said to his fans back in '07 when he was with his previous label:

Nine Inch Nails frontman Trent Reznor had some harsh words for record labels during a concert at Australia’s Hordern Pavilion regarding Universal Music Australia pricing his album at $30 — apparently a lot more than other artists’ music costs there:

"Has the price come down? [crowd: no] Well you know what that means. Steal it. Steal away. Steal, steal and steal some more and give it to all your friends and keep on stealing. Because one way or another these mother f—ers will get it through their head that they’re ripping people off and that’s not right."

Here's the thing of it, the record labels are an antiquated system of promotion and distribution. By and large they are obsolete. They've been slow to adapt to the way media and the internet have fundamentally changed the paradigm of their industry, and they've suffered for it. A lot of artists are figuring out (external link) that they can rely solely on the mechanisms of the internet to make a living as an artist. Maybe not if they want to be a megastar, but successful none the less.

The group [Pomplamoose] has made no hard copies of its albums; no CDs have been printed. Nevertheless, they make their living on sales, having sold about 100,000 songs last year.

Pomplamoose is one of the first bands to be invited into YouTube's Musicians Wanted program, which is an ad-revenue sharing program. YouTube places ads next to or on a video, and then shares the revenue for that ad, 50-50, with the artist. Income sources like this allow for bands to survive without the help of a major label.

"If you can't just do ... the production, the instruments and everything all by yourself, then you do need help. That's something that labels are really good at," Dawn says. "If, for example, you're somebody who writes songs, like Lady Gaga, and you need everything that's gonna make you Lady Gaga, YouTube's not gonna be able to do that. You need a big fat label. But if you're just a band, I don't think we're in an era anymore where you need that sort of major backing."

You can download free songs from Pomplamoose (mostly covers), and they also have music available for purchase, it isn't an either/or situation. Note also things like Arcade Fire winning a Grammy last year, an indie rock band signed up with much smaller, independent labels.

It's things like this that scare the big labels. It's the reason they resort to sleezey scare tactics like threatening to sue single mothers into bankruptcy for alleged (and unproven) copyright infringement (external link).

I mean, bottom line? People will pay for media art. Not everyone on the internet is a pirate, even the scary teenagers will pay for media from the artists they respect. The crux of it is that it has to be easily available and accessible. You only need to look at the figures for iTunes and Netflix for proof of that.


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RTPVid
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Jul 17, 2012 12:03 |  #11

ceremus wrote in post #14729625 (external link)
...even the scary teenagers will pay for media from the artists they respect . The crux of it is that it has to be easily available and accessible. ....

So, if they don't "respect" the artist, or they don't publish through a "convenient" media, it is OK to steal their work? Wow.


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ceremus
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Jul 17, 2012 12:13 |  #12

RTPVid wrote in post #14729779 (external link)
So, if they don't "respect" the artist, or they don't publish through a "convenient" media, it is OK to steal their work? Wow.

I'm not excusing it or saying it's moral or legal or whatever. But it's what people do. If you offer people the option of having to drive out to a store to pay $24-30 for a disc, that they then have to run a program to migrate the songs to their portable player, or to pirate the media from hundreds of download sources at home in their PJ's, they're gonna pick the latter.

If you make a central online store where people can pay $.99 per downloaded track, and less than that for the album, without having to hunt around for various download sites or torrent programs, then you'll have paying customers.

This is the reality of the internet. The pandora's box is open, you can't go back to the world where all forms of popular media are not available to any pirate site anywhere in the world. The only way you can curb it is to make the legitimate source more preferable to the pirated rips.


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PixelMagic
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Jul 17, 2012 12:24 |  #13

Yes. And whenever I see threads from photographers complaining about people using their photos, I always wonder if they have Photoshop illegally installed on their computer(s). I've seen estimates that 60 percent of Photoshop users have downloaded and installed it illegally and it stands to reason that that estimate encompasses lots of photographers.

You see lots of hints about it in these forums (Raw & Post Processing especially) with comments like "I just got Photoshop" or "a friend gave my Photoshop" often without explanation of what they actually mean. Then when you advise them to contact Adobe about a problem they are experiencing, the questions suddenly cease.

Miki G wrote in post #14727936 (external link)
I've seen lots of threads regarding copyright infringement on this & other forums and often wondered, are the photographers who are complaining about their images been used by others actually hypocrites? Have they ever copied music etc for their own personal collection without paying for it's use?
I was recently discussing this issue with a group of people & all admitted that they had recorded music and copied photos, videos etc at some point in the past. I was also recently viewing a photographic exhibition from a local club, when I noticed a lot of the people who were attending using their phones to photograph the images on display even though there were signs posted to say photography or video was not allowed. It seems that this is just an accepted practice by the public.


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saturnin
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Jul 17, 2012 12:31 |  #14
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so many angels here in this thread. "never done this, never done that" - so many model citizens :)

good for you guys.....no really.. like seriously... good job


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Jul 17, 2012 12:41 |  #15

RTPVid wrote in post #14729779 (external link)
So, if they don't "respect" the artist, or they don't publish through a "convenient" media, it is OK to steal their work? Wow.

What a foolish way to view the situation.

In a lot of ways piracy can be the path of least resistance. Make the media hard to acquire, price it beyond reason or employ draconian or restrictive DRM/usage policies and piracy will flourish. Don't get me started on TV shows, cable, episode availability in online streaming, etc. Want to make someone download your TV show? Look at how they do things, most recently Viacom in particular. Too late, you got me started (and this isn't even the full version of my rant).

Do I want to buy a new movie or pirate it? If I pirate it I can get the quality I want and not have to wait through ads or FBI warning screens telling me not to pirate the movie I just bought. Buying it is in many ways more annoying and less convenient than pirating it. Software companies sometimes fall in to similar traps. Some programs wouldn't work on 64 bit versions of Windows back in say the Vista days not because the program was incompatible but because the DRM it was packaged with was. You could pirate the software and it worked fine.

Music isn't generally that bad but there are some exceptions. Sony once released CDs with software that would attempt to autoinstall to enforce their DRM scheme. Digital downloads have at times had some strange restrictions in how you could use files.

In the early glory days of file sharing when I was a kid I used Napster and WinMX. I didn't build my library off that music though, I used it to get exposure to the music I liked so I could buy the actual CDs. Now that various sites have legal and free samples I use that because a) it's legal and b) it's easier. If I like it I buy the physical CD and rip it for use on my computer, in the car or on the go. The CD never leaves my rack or my dedicated stereo after that.

I find piracy to be an interesting topic, ultimately I think in the world of music (although they have finally started adapting more sensible strategies), movies and software that the thing that drives many people to pirate is ease and convenience. Legal distribution has gotten easier with DRM free music from Amazon and iTunes (right, I forget, never used it). In software one great example is Steam which while solely a platform for games (for now), it has evolved in to a trusted and reliable and convenient way to buy games and manage and install from your library repeatedly and easily. The sales don't hurt.

The movie industry is still running around like idiots as far as I'm concerned. 3D and higher ticket prices won't make me want to see more movies, nor will restrictive digital downloads or warnings on the media I've purchased.

Back to TV for a moment. If there are shows I want to watch and if I don't want to pay the ludicrous fees for cable, some of the networks stream the shows from their site. You may have to wait a week but they're often there. That doesn't work for all new shows though and it while it might eventually show up on Netflix or AmazonOD or Hulu, who knows when or if every episode will be in tow. Cruising through an old show on Netflix only to stumble across episodes that are missing (probably due to music licensing or something) from otherwise complete seasons is rather frustrating and with entire show libraries just a few clicks away on the computer to download, it's not hard to see why people choose to do it.

When the content providers stop punishing their paying customers piracy might go down some but not much else is going to help.


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Are photographers hypocritical sometimes?
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