Approve the Cookies
This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and our Privacy Policy.
OK
Forums  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear
Guest
Forums  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear
Register to forums    Log in

 
FORUMS Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon Digital Cameras 
Thread started 19 Jul 2012 (Thursday) 20:40
Search threadPrev/next
sponsored links (only for non-logged)

camera with superior AF sensors for portraits

 
hdctx
Hatchling
2 posts
Joined Aug 2011
     
Jul 19, 2012 20:40 |  #1

Greetings! I dove back into photography last year, and started with a Canon t2i because all the cameras below the 5D appear to have the same sensor, and I thought I might get equal image quality, and then determine an upgrade path. The images on the t2i are fine, but I have a lot of trouble getting tack sharp focus exactly where I need it for portraits.

Most of my lenses are manual, but I did break down and get a Canon 50/1.8. I've also rented a Canon 85/1.2. I read somewhere that the lower level cameras don't actually have AF sensors suitable for the 2.8 and larger lenses, even Canon L glass.
I have a seven inch monitor I've tried, but it's not helping that much. I also have a seagull viewfinder, but unless I'm on a tripod with a static subject, half my photos are off just enough that they're not marketable. I know I can tighten up the aperture and solve that one problem, but then I have to do much more work in Photoshop to get the bokah I need for the pics to be marketable as portraits.
The new t4i is supposed to have a focusing system and sensors designed for the 2.8s. Can anyone tell me if that system is superior to the 60D or 7?
Second I've read about solving focus by using the backfocus button or checking the "blinkies" Does the 4i have those features? Does the blinkie feature only work with AF lenses? (I got the older manual primes for video work, you can save 90%)
Thanks for the help!




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
EL_PIC
Goldmember
Avatar
2,028 posts
Likes: 1
Joined Dec 2009
Location: Austin Texas - Lucca Italy
     
Jul 19, 2012 20:50 |  #2
bannedPermanent ban

"Upgrading" camera versions are as slight as New and Improved Kitchen Cleaners.
The best way to "Upgrade" is upgrade the format.
From APS-C to FFDSLR and from FFDSLR to MFDSLR.
New and Improved AF is a great way to give the manufacturer new and improved funds.


EL_PIC - RIT BS Photo '78 - Photomask Engineering Mgr
Canon DSLR - Nikon SLR - Phase One 60MP MFDSLR
http://www.Photo-Image-Creations.com (external link)
http://www.musecube.co​m/el_pic/ (external link)
http://www.facebook.co​m/PhotoImageCreations (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
hdctx
THREAD ­ STARTER
Hatchling
2 posts
Joined Aug 2011
     
Jul 19, 2012 21:17 as a reply to  @ EL_PIC's post |  #3

I'm glad you're happy with your Phase One.
There is a demonstrable difference in the AF metering systems between cameras.
While cubic dollars can cure many technical ills, I'm not in the market for a $20K system.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Brupikk
Member
Avatar
188 posts
Gallery: 2 photos
Likes: 18
Joined Jul 2012
Location: Brazil
     
Jul 20, 2012 09:13 |  #4

I also want to know about the differences on Focus for T2i and T4i, as I want to buy one of them
and the Focus was always my problem.. similar to original post

will I get photos more sharpen on T4i ?
will it be easier to Focus with it ? with the touchscreen Focus or the Focus that follow movement ?
the 9 cross-type will help on the photos ?

everyone says that T4i autofocus is better for video, but for photos, Focus will it be better than T2i ?
Still don´t know which one to get.. T2i or T4i


Brupikk - Brazil
Canon 6D + Canon 6D + Canon 6D + 24-105mm f/4 + 70-200mm f/4 + 50mm f/1.8 + 35mm f/2.0

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
crn3371
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
7,198 posts
Likes: 2
Joined Mar 2005
Location: SoCal, USA
     
Jul 20, 2012 09:21 |  #5

My guess is that your problem is more of a technique issue and less of a camera issue.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
bobbyz
Cream of the Crop
20,506 posts
Likes: 3479
Joined Nov 2007
Location: Bay Area, CA
     
Jul 20, 2012 09:23 |  #6

crn3371 wrote in post #14744208 (external link)
My guess is that your problem is more of a technique issue and less of a camera issue.

My thoughts also. Please post some problem shots. Manual focus with 1.6x crop cameras is pain IMHO.


Fuji XT-1, 18-55mm
Sony A7rIV, , Tamron 28-200mm, Sigma 40mm f1.4 Art FE, Sony 85mm f1.8 FE, Sigma 105mm f1.4 Art FE
Fuji GFX50s, 23mm f4, 32-64mm, 45mm f2.8, 110mm f2, 120mm f4 macro
Canon 24mm TSE-II, 85mm f1.2 L II, 90mm TSE-II Macro, 300mm f2.8 IS I

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Gregg.Siam
Goldmember
Avatar
2,383 posts
Likes: 1
Joined Jun 2010
Location: Bangkok
     
Jul 20, 2012 09:45 as a reply to  @ bobbyz's post |  #7

Most of my lenses are manual, but I did break down and get a Canon 50/1.8. I've also rented a Canon 85/1.2. I read somewhere that the lower level cameras don't actually have AF sensors suitable for the 2.8 and larger lenses, even Canon L glass.

What lenses are you using other than the 50mm f/1.8?

As to AF sensors not working with f/2.8 and larger lenses, it's just not true. I used a 70-200 f/2.8 with my t2i all the time and the AF was perfect. I think "optimal" would be a better term.

Second I've read about solving focus by using the backfocus button or checking the "blinkies" Does the 4i have those features? Does the blinkie feature only work with AF lenses?

I think you are getting confused. "Blinkies" have zero to do with AF. What blinkies means is showing overexposed highlights on the screen as blinking white areas. It's called highlight alert and the t4i has it in the menus.

Honestly, I think you are doing something wrong. I had a t2i and it worked perfectly with all my L glass. The 50mm f/1.8 is also capable of taking tack sharp images as well.

Post some images with EXIF intact so we can see what you're talking about.

will I get photos more sharpen on T4i ?

no, but cross type AF points have the ability to AF better in some situations. BUT, this doesn't mean the images will be sharper per se. I've nailed super sharp images with my t2i as I have with the 61 point AF of my 5D3.


5D MKIII | 24-105mm f/4 L| 50mm f/1.8 | 600EX-RT [FONT=Tahoma][COLOR=bl​ue][FONT="]|
∞ 500px (external link)
flickr (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
AJSJones
Goldmember
Avatar
2,647 posts
Gallery: 6 photos
Likes: 92
Joined Dec 2001
Location: California
     
Jul 20, 2012 09:55 |  #8

The solution is in your post! Use the tripod!

You say you do not have this problem when you use a tripod and static subject - therefore it is camera or subject movement between focusing and exposure that is causing the focus to be "just off". With your description, it seems like you have wide aperture and very shallow depth of field and want a lot of the image to be out of focus (bokeh is the word describing the quality of the out of focus areas) - often in such cases, moving the camera or subject as little as an inch will cause the symptoms you describe.


My picture galleries (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
amfoto1
Cream of the Crop
10,331 posts
Likes: 146
Joined Aug 2007
Location: San Jose, California
     
Jul 20, 2012 10:19 |  #9

Hi and welcome to POTN,

Yeah, I wouldn't be too quick to blame the camera.

If you use the center AF point only on your camera, it's not much different from the center points on all the other cameras.

The 50/1.8 is capable of making nice images... but it's AF accuracy and consistency are notoriously "iffy". The 85/1.2 is also one of the more difficult lenses to to focus accurately. And super large aperture lens is more challenging. The 85L is slower focusing, designed that way deliberately to improve accuracy... but with super shallow depth of field of large apertures, you better nail the focus or you'll have problems.

The new T4i essenatially has the AF system of the 60D (and earlier 50D, 40D).... which is 9 points, all of them "cross type". The T3i (600D) and T2i are more like the 30D and earlier (and the 5D classic and 5D Mark II).... with 9 AF points, but only the center one the more sensitive "cross type". Using only the center point, particularly in One Shot or Live View, you will see very little difference. If you manually select some of the outer points on your camera (or 30D, 5DII and earlier in these lines) you will see slower performance, a bit more hunting in lower light.

But, even those simpler AF points are usable and can be accurate. For best accuracry, don't use AI Servo (for moving subjects) or AI Focus (not really a focus mode at all). Use One Shot... Or even better yet, use Live View... though it's slower.

So it can be down to technique... But lenses are also important, a big part of the focusing accuracy and speed equation. I also think upgrading from the 50/1.8 to 50/1.4, Canon or Sigma (though the latter might need calibration). USM lenses (or equivalent HSM in Sigma and USD in Tamron) are what you should be looking for. In general, those are faster and more accurate focusing. There are some exceptions... such as the big aperture lenses, which are USM but tuned to focus more slowly for better accuracy.

Bokeh or background blur is a factor of several things... not just the size of the aperture. One is the design of the aperture... lenses with more blades and sometimes specially curved blades give a more perfectly round opening and can make for nicer bokeh. (The 50/1.8 has five blades... the Canon 50/1.4 has eight and the Sigma 50/1.4 has nine. This makes for nicer bokeh.) Focal length and the distances you work from are another big, big factor... both the distance from you to the subject and the distance from the subject to the background, determine how strongly the background is blurred.

Full frame cameras, such as 5D Mark II, don't actually change depth of field... but it feels like they do. Using the same focal length, you work in closer to your subject to get the same framing, so will find that depth of field seems shallower. Also, full frame cameras give smoother transitions and gradations, which can be a factor with "good bokeh".

If you don't already know it, look into "hyperfocal distance" and "hyperfocal focusing distances", get and study depth of field charts and how DOF works. You need to learn this, if you intend to work with big aperture lenses near wide open.

Really critical focus with AF lenses might also call for a camera with focus Micro Adjust feature. Your camera doesn't have that. None of the Rebel/xxxD series have that feature, where you can fine tune the focus accuracy of up to 20 lenses on your particular camera. 50D has this feature, 5D Mark II and Mark III do, 7D does.... so do all the recent 1 Series cameras. But, you also can have camera repair service and adjust any camera and lens to perform to their best. Incidentally, Micro Adjusting lenses is one of the places where we learned about the AF problems with the 50/1.8 lens... It's nearly impossible to calibrate that particular lens with much accuracy. It's just too inconsistent.

Also be sure to remove any and all filters from your lens, for focus testing. Filters can soften an image overall... or even cause focus errors. Using a matched lens hood might help, too, by keeping obllique light off the lens (certainly can't hurt).

Don't mistake lens softness for focus issues. For example, both the Canon 50/1.8 and 50/1.4 are not at their sharpest wide open. When I want as sharp as possible, I stop down my 50/1.4 to f2.2 or smaller. Larger apertures are usable, IMO with my copy of this lens, just not quite as sharp. Most lenses benefit from stopping down a little.

Use a tripod. It's a more thoughtful way of shooting anyway.

At some slower shutter speeds, you will need to use mirror lockup, too... or risk camera shake blur.

Post production comes into it, too. All images need some sharpening in post... usually the final step once other editing is complete, and tailored to whatever size/output is intended for the image.

And, there's no avoiding it... some post is needed with most images, regardless of camera or focusing accuracy. I often do selective sharpening and/or even add some blur to parts of an image, when it's necessary. This allows me to use sharper apertures and/or shoot moving subjects with a little more depth of field to forgive slight mis-focus with AI Servo and fast moving subjects. There are limitations to what optics can do.... That's were some additional post production can help.

Also, you need to have reasonable expectations. If you are looking at 18MP images at 100% or larger on your computer monitor, that's sort of like making a five foot wide print with the image and viewing it from 18 inches. If you walk up to within a few inches of one of the old masters paintings in the Louvre in Paris, all you will see are bruch strokes. Now, I shoot mostly sports/action. I use the center AF point much of the time, along with AI Servo and mostly fast focusing USM lenses and Back Button Focusing (with AF lenses, a common sports photographer trick). This allows me to get acceptible focus in 95% or better of my shots. I have to work at it and do better when I'm in practice and shooting more familiar subjects, but I'm in control and it's down to me to do my job getting things in focus.

In the end, I don't think your solution is a different camera. More likely it's lenses and techniques... learning to get what you want out of the camera you've got... and fitting it with some better (for your purposes) lenses. Using manual focus lenses on modern AF cameras is tricky... the cameras just aren't very "manual focus friendly"... they don't have many of the features to help you focus, that vintage cameras had built right in. There are special focus screens available for most cameras, including yours (external link). That might help, but needs to be installed and can have some effects on other camera functions (in most cases, spot metering is no longer usable). Adapting vintage lenses, it can help to have the "chipped" adapters, too, that will allow Focus Confirmation on your camera to work... They cost a little more but really can help with focus accuracy. I'd be a little concerned about the quality of lens adapters, too... They are often made cheaply and there might be some variations. They have to be a very precise thickness, to properly adapt a lens for accurate focus. Some of the other camera models have bigger, brighter viewfinders, too, that can help.... and have more easily interchangeable focus screens that are cheaper (such as the high precision Canon "S" stype).

Another thing that might help is an Angle Finder (external link)... this has a built in magnifier to allow closer inspection of focus accuracy right through the viewfinder. But, Live View with your camera's LCD screen or the add-on monitor you have does much the same thing. An angle finder is all about focus precision... but is most often used on a tripod during fairly deliberate shooting. Besides the Canon model shown at the link, there are various 3rd party that are good, but less expensive.

Finally, I gotta say... I've been shooting for 30+ years and today's AF systems... even the simpler ones such as in some of the Rebels, my old 10D, 5D series prior to the Mark III.... are better, faster, more accurate than I ever was using manual focus lenses on my old cameras. Good AF lenses (again, look for USM in particular... or the 3rd party equivalents) on your camera would likely nail focus a lot more often and far faster than I ever could even with the best vintage lenses and cameras. In particular, for portraiture I'd suggest looking at the 50/1.4s, 85/1.8 or 85/1.4, 100/2, 135/2 (if you have a lot of working space) and possibly the Tamron 60/2 (though it's a macro lens, and not USD, so will be slower focusing).

Portraiture is one of the specialties of photography that simply doesn't call for fast and fancy AF... So, I'd suggest keep using your camera and work on other factors instead.


Alan Myers (external link) "Walk softly and carry a big lens."
5DII, 7DII, 7D, M5 & others. 10-22mm, Meike 12/2.8,Tokina 12-24/4, 20/2.8, EF-M 22/2, TS 24/3.5L, 24-70/2.8L, 28/1.8, 28-135 IS (x2), TS 45/2.8, 50/1.4, Sigma 56/1.4, Tamron 60/2.0, 70-200/4L IS, 70-200/2.8 IS, 85/1.8, Tamron 90/2.5, 100/2.8 USM, 100-400L II, 135/2L, 180/3.5L, 300/4L IS, 300/2.8L IS, 500/4L IS, EF 1.4X II, EF 2X II. Flashes, strobes & various access. - FLICKR (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
BrickR
Cream of the Crop
5,935 posts
Likes: 115
Joined Mar 2011
Location: Dallas TX
     
Jul 20, 2012 15:05 |  #10

bobbyz wrote in post #14744222 (external link)
My thoughts also. Please post some problem shots. Manual focus with 1.6x crop cameras is pain IMHO.

Same thoughts here. Never had issues shooting portraits with my T2i, even when using f1.8.


My junk
The grass isn't greener on the other side, it's green where you water it.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
wayne.robbins
Goldmember
2,062 posts
Joined Nov 2010
     
Jul 20, 2012 19:03 |  #11

@AJSJones- you forgot to use the timer or a remote! Just as important as a good tripod.

Just because something is written on the internet does not make it true.

I don't know why the OP didn't go to www.usa.canon.com (external link) and look at the specifications for each camera. Nope- the T2i is not listed for having f/2.8 sensitive cross type sensor in the center. Yes, the 60D and 7D do. 7D is listed as having 19-point all cross-type AF ( f/2.8 at center: Dual cross sensor) The T4i is listed as having 9 points (All AF points are cross-type at f/5.6., Center AF point is diagonal cross-type at f/2.8.) . It's got all of the Canon models in there that I am aware of- all listed under specifications.

I would guess that the 60D and the t4i are more similar than different in regards to AF. If you were shooting in AI servo- then the t4i would be a step up. The 7D gives you MFA in case your lenses are off a bit. You should also consider shooting tethered to a laptop- using liveview... Shoot from the laptop though.

I would wonder how your lighting is- are you using flash/strobes ? For PP- how much sharpening are you using ? Are you shooting Raw or are you using jpg straight out of the camera ? Low light makes AF focusing a bit less accurate.

I do agree that a more modern camera will give you benefits in AF- just as going full frame will. But will it solve your AF issues- maybe- maybe not. But newer cameras have the benefit of newer processors, newer algorithms, and more years of experience in putting them all together. If I had to choose between a 60D and a t4i, I'd probably take the t4i for a number of reasons- including the minor improvements over the years as being one of the key ones.


EOS 5D III, EOS 7D,EOS Rebel T4i, Canon 70-200 f/2.8 IS II, Canon 24-105L, Canon 18-135 IS STM, 1.4x TC III, 2.0x TC III, Σ 50mm f/1.4, Σ 17-50 OS, Σ 70-200 OS, Σ 50-500 OS, Σ 1.4x TC, Σ 2.0x TC, 580EXII(3), Canon SX-40, Canon S100
Fond memories: Rebel T1i, Canon 18-55 IS, Canon 55-250 IS, 18-135 IS (Given to a good home)...

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
AJSJones
Goldmember
Avatar
2,647 posts
Gallery: 6 photos
Likes: 92
Joined Dec 2001
Location: California
     
Jul 20, 2012 21:17 |  #12

A timer for portraits? Remote release maybe, to be less obvious for the subject to know when the shot is being taken. With fast shutterspeeds, like with a fast lens, vibration from direct shutter press will not be a big deal. I think the issue here was focusing on something and then either the camera or the subject moved enough with the shallow DoF to have the something now OOF, and something else sharp, so motion blur wasn't the cause. OTOH, it is a good practice to use the remote when using a tripod.


My picture galleries (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
kawi_200
Goldmember
1,477 posts
Gallery: 10 photos
Likes: 236
Joined Jul 2011
Location: Stanwood, WA
     
Jul 20, 2012 23:12 |  #13

Sounds like technique or lens issues. I never have problems with my XSi after I upgraded from the kit lenses. I'd assume you are also trying to use the 50mm f/1.8 wide open at f/1.8 ish... News flash, that lens isn't the greatest wide open. It's like a 3rd kit lens. Buy better glass and see what you get. Also, really try and focus on technique and NEEDING to upgrade rather than just going with it. It's like whining why you can't pull a 15.5sec quarter mile in an RSX-S when the car is fully able to do it, just driver error ;)


5D4 | 8-15L | 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS | 24L II | 40mm pancake | 100L IS | 70-200mm f/2.8L IS mk2 | 400mm f/4 DO IS

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links (only for non-logged)

2,598 views & 0 likes for this thread, 11 members have posted to it.
camera with superior AF sensors for portraits
FORUMS Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon Digital Cameras 
AAA
x 1600
y 1600

Jump to forum...   •  Rules   •  Forums   •  New posts   •  RTAT   •  'Best of'   •  Gallery   •  Gear   •  Reviews   •  Member list   •  Polls   •  Image rules   •  Search   •  Password reset   •  Home

Not a member yet?
Register to forums
Registered members may log in to forums and access all the features: full search, image upload, follow forums, own gear list and ratings, likes, more forums, private messaging, thread follow, notifications, own gallery, all settings, view hosted photos, own reviews, see more and do more... and all is free. Don't be a stranger - register now and start posting!


COOKIES DISCLAIMER: This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and to our privacy policy.
Privacy policy and cookie usage info.


POWERED BY AMASS forum software 2.58forum software
version 2.58 /
code and design
by Pekka Saarinen ©
for photography-on-the.net

Latest registered member was a spammer, and banned as such!
2779 guests, 138 members online
Simultaneous users record so far is 15,144, that happened on Nov 22, 2018

Photography-on-the.net Digital Photography Forums is the website for photographers and all who love great photos, camera and post processing techniques, gear talk, discussion and sharing. Professionals, hobbyists, newbies and those who don't even own a camera -- all are welcome regardless of skill, favourite brand, gear, gender or age. Registering and usage is free.