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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 22 Jul 2012 (Sunday) 13:03
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EOS M officially announced

 
oaktree
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Jul 24, 2012 13:32 as a reply to  @ post 14762906 |  #331

Sorry, Canoneers :( I couldn't wait for the third or fourth version of the EOS-M. I just bought a NEX-7 and Zeiss 24/1.8 lens.

At least I waited until I could see what mirror-less Canon came up with.


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Hogloff
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Jul 24, 2012 13:40 |  #332
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HyperYagami wrote in post #14762906 (external link)
I failed to see why not.

This is clear the competitive model of Panasonic's GF3/5, which features no mode dial etc. If you look at Panasonic's line-up there are about 3 other product lines there. Whoever think this will be the only mirrorless Canon will ever come up with is on some serious strong drugs.

As a sidenote, Canon came out with an adapter and people **** and moan about attaching a EF 70-200mm and it becomes unbalance, while the same bunch of people would **** and moan if Canon not even bothered to come out with an adapter. See what's happening there?

The people you are talking about is me and no I would not **** or moan if the adapter was left out as I feel these cameras are made for portability and attaching the EF lenses defeats this portability as far as I am concerned. Now, I would **** and moan if Canon would not come out with a new line of very compact high performance lenses for this line of cameras.

I might be interested in their next version of the camera if they would add more control buttons / dials and a viewfinder, but the way it sits right now, I have zero interest in the camera as it is just a glorified P&S that costs way too much.




  
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Jul 24, 2012 13:53 |  #333

I don't see how difficult this camera would be to handle. The sony nex-7 has no viewfinder and people seem to do well with it. Heck it wouldnt surprise me if sony did away with the buttons on their cameras and went full touch screen as well. If you have an EF lens on there just hold the lens with your left hand and use your right hand to trigger the camera? Your left hand will have the total weight of the camera while your right hand will stabilize it a bit. Need practice? Again use a Sony NEX camera. Whenever the norm is changed people will be apprehensive to change. Come October we will know more about how the touch screen interface will work when we all can get a chance to use it and confirm if canon dropped the ball on the focus interface or not.

However, i can see why there is concern there. It is valid.


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dinanm3atl
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Jul 24, 2012 14:04 |  #334

HyperYagami wrote in post #14762906 (external link)
I failed to see why not.

This is clear the competitive model of Panasonic's GF3/5, which features no mode dial etc. If you look at Panasonic's line-up there are about 3 other product lines there. Whoever think this will be the only mirrorless Canon will ever come up with is on some serious strong drugs.

As a sidenote, Canon came out with an adapter and people **** and moan about attaching a EF 70-200mm and it becomes unbalance, while the same bunch of people would **** and moan if Canon not even bothered to come out with an adapter. See what's happening there?


Of course. Need some reason to ****. If the camera did not take EF lenses in some capacity there would be many replies like ...

"WTF Canon... price gouging and making me buy more lenses to use on your new camera? What happened to buying into a system?"


Round and round we go. I swear reading this thread some people have never used a P&S camera before or a touch screen. Also have never used a mirrorless camera... Only abnormal people will be able to hold the camera? It's a 3" touch screen... The Galaxy SIII has a 4.8" LCD and an iPhone 4/S has a 3.5" touchscreen. I can easy use the screen with my thumb...

I foresee all of these simply being wrong. The girl in the video is using her thumbs very easily and they are even bent... maybe she is of 'abnormal size'? Seems if you mounted a 70-200 you would support it with your left hand and use the right hand to operate on the rear screen? I don't find this too crazy personally.

http://www.youtube.com​/watch?v=Sa_9kNAMcIw (external link)


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bjyoder
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Jul 24, 2012 14:26 as a reply to  @ dinanm3atl's post |  #335

Hogloff wrote in post #14762538 (external link)
Fair enough, for my needs, is sucks...but I have not heard anyone indicate exactly how this camera will cover their needs. I've heard people get excited about sticking their existing lenses onto this...but why? What need is that covering? You still have to carry a bag of lenses with you along with this P&S.

Seems to me people are trying to justify a purchase without really knowing what need they are filling. I've seen this with many people here buying gear just for the sake of it. If that is their need, then I guess this will fill it.

You've constantly referred to the M as a point and shoot camera, and bashed it for it's decidedly non-SLR like layout, which was Canon's whole point to the camera. Understandibly, it's probably not going to be a true "backup" camera for anyone seriously running a business (though it would definitely do in a pinch). I understand that viewpoint, and why enthusiasts on this forum and elsewhere don't like that this is Canon's first foray into the mirrorless realm.

However, for myself, a gearhead/enthusiast/se​mi-pro, I love the idea of this little camera. It's something that I can just use like a point and shoot, but the quality of the images will be the same as what I'm used to out of my current camera setup. I get a simple camera that I can hand to anyone and ask them to include me in a picture, and they don't freak out about not knowing how to use it (like happens when I try to pass of my gripped 7D).

Add in that I could use this camera with my exisiting lenses, and it's suddenly an awesome travel camera for me. I would need 3 or 4 lenses in a small bag, and I'm set for vacation, but, again, I don't sacrifice quality, and I can take control over the exposure when needed (sunrise/sunset landscapes/cityscapes)​.

This is exactly what I've been waiting on for a mirrorless camera. It may be expensive up front, but then I'm done: I don't need to try and figure out what the next lens I'm going to need/want for the new system is.


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Yohan ­ Pamudji
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Jul 24, 2012 14:31 |  #336

HyperYagami wrote in post #14762906 (external link)
I failed to see why not.

This is clear the competitive model of Panasonic's GF3/5, which features no mode dial etc. If you look at Panasonic's line-up there are about 3 other product lines there. Whoever think this will be the only mirrorless Canon will ever come up with is on some serious strong drugs.

Because we are talking about the EOS M, not some future rumored model. My comments are specific to this camera, not commentary on mirrorless design in general, which is why I said that bringing in other cameras is unnecessary. But it's convenient that you brought up the GF3 because the EOS M as designed will likely have the same usability issues due to its touchscreen-heavy interface. Again, whether the issues are problematic for a particular user is a matter of opinion and preference, but they are there on the GF3 so I strongly believe the same will apply to the EOS M.

vipergts831 wrote in post #14763119 (external link)
I don't see how difficult this camera would be to handle.

...

However, i can see why there is concern there. It is valid.

Thanks. A bit of open-mindedness in the midst of disagreement goes a long way to soothing ruffled feathers.

dinanm3atl wrote in post #14763183 (external link)
I swear reading this thread some people have never used a P&S camera before or a touch screen. Also have never used a mirrorless camera... Only abnormal people will be able to hold the camera? It's a 3" touch screen... The Galaxy SIII has a 4.8" LCD and an iPhone 4/S has a 3.5" touchscreen. I can easy use the screen with my thumb...

Comparing operation of a touchscreen phone where it's all touchscreen to a camera where there are other controls besides on the screen (shutter release button) is missing the point. On the camera the issue is that the grip required to hold the camera in a typical shooting grip is incompatible with operating the screen at the same time, i.e. you have to shift your right hand to operate the entirety of the screen unlike on a typical DSLR where all the important shooting controls are within easy reach of your right hand. I believe that's the crux of Hogloff's point: that the touchscreen-heavy interface will pose challenges to those accustomed to having all shooting settings easily accessible from their right hand without significant shifting. If I misunderstood then let me know what I missed.

I foresee all of these simply being wrong. The girl in the video is using her thumbs very easily and they are even bent... maybe she is of 'abnormal size'? Seems if you mounted a 70-200 you would support it with your left hand and use the right hand to operate on the rear screen? I don't find this too crazy personally.

http://www.youtube.com​/watch?v=Sa_9kNAMcIw (external link)

I'm not going to address the 70-200 point because it's all a bit absurd (not you; just the idea of sticking one or a similarly large lens on this camera). But look at how she's operating the camera. She's using both hands to operate the touchscreen--left hand to operate left side of screen and right hand to operate right side--and at least her left and maybe her right hand as well are shifted from normal shooting position to do so. That supports my point that you can't operate the touchscreen and maintain normal shooting position with both hands at the same time.

Again, in case it wasn't clear all the other times I've said it here and elsewhere: whether this operational issue becomes an actual problem is a matter of opinion and preference, but I don't think it's unreasonable based on prior art and even this video you've linked to to believe that it will occur for most users. If you believe it won't happen to you at all let alone become a problem then great. I think the evidence says otherwise.




  
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chrise17
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Jul 24, 2012 14:32 |  #337

I was looking forward to the mirrorless offering but without a viewfinder & pop up flash,articulated screen (pushing it a bit) I wont be buying.
Thought it may be similar but smaller to the Panasonic G5 4/3 which is a bit smaller than the 650D.
I suppose the Eos M mkll is already being prepared




  
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Yohan ­ Pamudji
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Jul 24, 2012 14:42 |  #338

bjyoder wrote in post #14763301 (external link)
You've constantly referred to the M as a point and shoot camera, and bashed it for it's decidedly non-SLR like layout, which was Canon's whole point to the camera. Understandibly, it's probably not going to be a true "backup" camera for anyone seriously running a business (though it would definitely do in a pinch). I understand that viewpoint, and why enthusiasts on this forum and elsewhere don't like that this is Canon's first foray into the mirrorless realm.

However, for myself, a gearhead/enthusiast/se​mi-pro, I love the idea of this little camera. It's something that I can just use like a point and shoot, but the quality of the images will be the same as what I'm used to out of my current camera setup. I get a simple camera that I can hand to anyone and ask them to include me in a picture, and they don't freak out about not knowing how to use it (like happens when I try to pass of my gripped 7D).

Add in that I could use this camera with my exisiting lenses, and it's suddenly an awesome travel camera for me. I would need 3 or 4 lenses in a small bag, and I'm set for vacation, but, again, I don't sacrifice quality, and I can take control over the exposure when needed (sunrise/sunset landscapes/cityscapes)​.

I think you nailed the strengths of the design squarely on the head, as well as the reason for all the wailing and gnashing of teeth here on POTN. Most of us are not the target audience. Hopefully a more enthusiast-friendly M will come soon to make us put down our pitchforks :)

And you emphasized the operative word: "can/could". It can be used as a P&S but with worlds better IQ. It could be used with existing lenses in a pinch although that's not the primary use for it. There's a lot to like about this camera. I think it's a good start although I have some concerns about AF speed and such. Not on my to-buy list but I'm glad Canon are finally in the mirrorless game and will watch carefully to see if they can get performance up to current day standards and provide a good lens selection quickly.

This is exactly what I've been waiting on for a mirrorless camera. It may be expensive up front, but then I'm done: I don't need to try and figure out what the next lens I'm going to need/want for the new system is.

Famous last words, my friend. Famous last words :lol: Once you experience the liberating feeling of small cameras and lenses you'll want more!




  
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Jul 24, 2012 14:48 |  #339

Charlie wrote in post #14762747 (external link)
I dont think it's a good backup kit. It'll cost a cool 1000 bucks for the camera and adapter.

As for small camera with big sensor, the rebel t2i is only 530g, a full 230g heavier than the eos-m, but when you factor in the flash and adapter, the weight savings will probably be less than 100g. At that point it doesnt have much going for it.

even if you're in the market for one as a primary camera, this particular one seems very very weak, though this can be a very good platform for future mirrorless cameras, first impression so far sucks to me.

It could provide versatility. You have a couple of very nice-looking (by the MTFs at least) EF-M lenses for those times when you want a small kit, both volume and weight (and you'd prolly leave the flash and adapter at home. I have a M43 kit for overseas travel - large DSLR kits are a pain for that) but you can also throw this in the bag with the regular DSLR kit/lenses to add second body with big sensor capability. This first mirrorless is a common Canon tactic of introducing a new line at the low end of its upgrade path so it's likely to be looked down on by the people used to the stuff in the line(s) higher up their chain (i.e. DSLR folks) - you epitomize that reaction (along with many others on this DSLR forum), but the camera is not for you - for you, it sucks. For others, Canon thinks, "not so much" :D:D


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krb
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Jul 24, 2012 14:57 |  #340

Yohan Pamudji wrote in post #14763320 (external link)
On the camera the issue is that the grip required to hold the camera in a typical shooting grip is incompatible with operating the screen at the same time, i.e. you have to shift your right hand to operate the entirety of the screen unlike on a typical DSLR where all the important shooting controls are within easy reach of your right hand. I believe that's the crux of Hogloff's point: that the touchscreen-heavy interface will pose challenges to those accustomed to having all shooting settings easily accessible from their right hand without significant shifting. If I misunderstood then let me know what I missed.

This has not been my experience. The lack of tactile feedback slows things down unless you really spend the time to know the camera, but there is generally no need to shift the grip any more than on a DSLR. Of course, this depends on the UI being laid out in a logical manner. If Canon screws that up and places necessary "buttons" in the touch screen interface along the left side of the screen then it will require releasing the right hand for most people, but a logical layout with commonly used buttons placed along the right edge of the screen allows easy and relatively fast access.

There are many types of shooting where a touch screen simply will not work. Situations where you need buttons and controls that are easily found without having to look for them and where the camera can be operated entirely holding the viewfinder up to your eye. If that is what you need then this is not the type of camera you should be looking at. But if you're doing that type of shooting then I wouldn't recommend a Rebel, either. This is when the larger bodies become necessary.


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travinh
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Jul 24, 2012 15:03 |  #341

NEX-7 does have the viewfinder.

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vipergts831 wrote in post #14763119 (external link)
I don't see how difficult this camera would be to handle. The sony nex-7 has no viewfinder and people seem to do well with it. Heck it wouldnt surprise me if sony did away with the buttons on their cameras and went full touch screen as well. If you have an EF lens on there just hold the lens with your left hand and use your right hand to trigger the camera? Your left hand will have the total weight of the camera while your right hand will stabilize it a bit. Need practice? Again use a Sony NEX camera. Whenever the norm is changed people will be apprehensive to change. Come October we will know more about how the touch screen interface will work when we all can get a chance to use it and confirm if canon dropped the ball on the focus interface or not.

However, i can see why there is concern there. It is valid.


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gregnash
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Jul 24, 2012 16:12 |  #342

Wow, these discussions have just gotten infinitely better than I could imagine! (Where's my popcorn!) I equate this to being something like a stuck-up 16yr old girl not getting the EXACT car she wanted from her parents on her 16th birthday (OMFG my parents bought me the 2012 Red Lexus IS 350 with the normal leather package!! WTF were they thinking, I SPECIFICALLY ASKED for the 2013 Red Lexus IS 350 with the Extended Leather Package, Moon Roof, 20" rims, and BOSE sound system. I'm so pissed right now.... FML!!!). So many people **** and moaning about this not being included or why did they do that. Next time you decide to start complaining about a NEW product to a company (especially something like this) take a look in your bag, if you have lots of red rings in there, guess what!! IT AIN'T AIMED AT YOU!

We all knew from the start that Canon was not going to come out with a model with all guns a'blazin' with every feature known to the market (and then some). From a marketing standpoint I think many here (and on different sites) have hit the nail on the head squarely: this is an ENTHUSIAST camera. It is meant to bridge the gap between COMPACT P&S and DSLR. It seems to me that most of the people that are doing the **** are those that consider themselves "elite" photographers and were looking for that "unicorn" of a mirrorless/CSC from Canon. Sorry boys and girls, but Santa just can't pull the rabbit outta his bag, nor his ass.

At this point in time, I am happy that Canon finally made the jump into the CSC market and that I will not have to adapt to a whole new brand or product line in the adaptation. Instead, I can keep my, albeit laughable, collection of lenses and use with with some relative ease with this camera. All the while still receiving just as sharp and pristine of pictures as I have come to expect from my 20D, my dad's T1, and my sister's T3i.

LOL /rant


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Jul 24, 2012 16:18 |  #343

Yohan Pamudji wrote in post #14763376 (external link)
And you emphasized the operative word: "can/could". It can be used as a P&S but with worlds better IQ. It could be used with existing lenses in a pinch although that's not the primary use for it. There's a lot to like about this camera. I think it's a good start although I have some concerns about AF speed and such. Not on my to-buy list but I'm glad Canon are finally in the mirrorless game and will watch carefully to see if they can get performance up to current day standards and provide a good lens selection quickly.

I'm pretty sure Hogloff has been trolling us due to his repeated insistence that it's a P&S.

I just think it'll be a killer secondary to my DSLR - Same good low-light capabilities (better than my old 400d, actually), same image quality, but all tucked in a tiny package. Now it's just time to wait for the prices to come down a bit...


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dinanm3atl
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Jul 24, 2012 16:27 |  #344

kumicho wrote in post #14763882 (external link)
I'm pretty sure Hogloff has been trolling us due to his repeated insistence that it's a P&S.

I just think it'll be a killer secondary to my DSLR - Same good low-light capabilities (better than my old 400d, actually), same image quality, but all tucked in a tiny package. Now it's just time to wait for the prices to come down a bit...


Maybe... but let's say it is a glorified P&S camera. If it has awesome IQ with the 22mm pancake lens... and I can use any of my lenses for 200 bucks. I'd be pretty happy with that.


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arj
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Jul 24, 2012 16:32 as a reply to  @ travinh's post |  #345

Sorry, I dont get it. It simply does not make any sense.

So, Canon launched an entry level mirrorless camera. Priced quite higher than the competition, having less native lenses than competition, missing the higher models in the mirrorless camera (so no upgrade path) and having less features than the competition.

I mean... you get an entry level mirrorless for 800 bucks.. it has no built in flash, which someone coming from a P&S shooter will miss, so add 150 bucks for the speedlite. Then the AF seems crap, the user interface is via a touchscreen, no wheels, dials, controls, battery life seems not so good... Then you have no articulating screen, no smart port for an EVF or other accessories. This thing basically is a dead dog.

Who for god sake would do this to himself? I mean, you can get a Sony NEX-5 which has far more features for less than the Canon M. This camera is simply designed and priced in such a way that it will not sell.




  
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