New Member, Looking for Upgrade Advice!

RetroBlader wrote in post #14782898
2. The 7D has better high ISO performance than the T2i. (But obviously not as good as the 5D2 or 5D3.)

I suspect you're thinking of the T1i. The T2i has the same 18 megapixel sensor in it that the 7D has. If there's any difference in high ISO performance between the two, it'll be minimal.

The 5D3 AF is reportedly better than the 7D's AF, but the 7D's AF is excellent regardless, and actually covers a bit more of the frame than the 5D3's AF does (for instance, the rule of thirds locations are covered by the 7D but not by the 5D3, though the 5D3 comes reasonably close).


In any case, yeah, the 7D is a much less expensive option that will give the OP most of what he's looking for, but if he really has an emphasis on significantly better high ISO performance than what he's already getting, the 5D3 is really the only thing that will deliver that and he'll have to deal with the loss of "reach".

To the OP: there's another option on the table: pick up a 7D (or stick with what you have) and wait about a year to see what the 7D's successor looks like. High ISO performance is a moving target, and the successor to the 7D is likely to have about a stop better high ISO performance while also having all the other things you're looking for, at a significant price savings relative to the 5D3.

kcbrown wrote in post #14783008
I suspect you're thinking of the T1i. The T2i has the same 18 megapixel sensor in it that the 7D has. If there's any difference in high ISO performance between the two, it'll be minimal.

Oops, you are right.

kcbrown wrote in post #14783008
In any case, yeah, the 7D is a much less expensive option that will give the OP most of what he's looking for, but if he really has an emphasis on significantly better high ISO performance than what he's already getting, the 5D3 is really the only thing that will deliver that and he'll have to deal with the loss of "reach".

Can't agree more.

It really depends on which is more important to the OP:
- better high-ISO performance (and better DOF control): 5D2
- much better AF, higher FPS, and 1.6x more reach: 7D

(Or be ready to spend $1500-2000 more for the 5D3 -- but still losing out on reach.)

kcbrown wrote in post #14783008
To the OP: there's another option on the table: pick up a 7D (or stick with what you have) and wait about a year to see what the 7D's successor looks like.

Or the rumoured entry-level FF camera:
https://photography-on-the.net …/showthread.php​?t=1207412

To the OP: many fine suggestions here, but to add my 2 cents, given what you shoot, reach does not seem to be an issue (i didn't see any reference to birds or sporting events where you are far away). So i'd recommend either getting the 5D2 or 5D3 (the latter is a very large improvement over the 5D3!).

As for lenses, the 70-200 f4 is a very light, fast-focusing lens but is ultimately limited to good light. While initially heavy, the 70-200 f2.8 lens soon becomes natural after a few outings.

Hi,

The first thing you need to decide is whether you want to go with a full frame camera or stick with a crop camera. There are advantages to both... but essentially you'd be able to use your 50mm lens on FF, but that's about it. You'd have to replace your 17-55 (24-70 is the closest equivalent) and FF lenses will tend to be bigger, heavier and more expensive. Plus you have less lens selection, since crop cameras can use both EF and EF-S lenses, while FF can only use EF.

FF... only the 1Ds, 1DX and 5D Mark III offer 100% viewfinder. 5D Mark II is close, though... 98%.

7D is the only crop Canon offering 100% viewfinder. 60D is 96%, 50D is 95% which is the same as your T2i. The 1D series, 5D series, 7D and xxD series cameras all use a true pentaprism, which makes their viewfinders a little brighter and feel a little larger... the xxxD/Rebel series like your T2i use a penta-mirror, which is lighter, smaller and less expensive.

100% viewfinder is not necessarily all that big a deal. In fact, you have to be careful... there's a little "fudge factor" at the edges with a less than 100% VF... none when it's truly 100%. I have to watch that I don't crop too tightly, using cameras with 100 and 98% viewfinders.

Brightness and size of the display are usually more critical... and 60D on up would all offer that, compared to your camera.

Also, the focus systems on all of them from T4i on up are a bit or a lot improved.... except for the 5D/5DII, which are more similar to your camera.

Sorry... but the above is incorrect.... Image quality and high ISO performance of 60D, 7D, T4i are nearly identical to T2i and T3i. They all use a very similar 18MP sensor... and they all process images through a Digic 4 processor (two processors in the 7D to support 8 frames per second shooting), except for the T4i which uses a newer Digic 5 processor. Don't expect much difference in IQ or high ISO performance, unless you go to a FF 5DII or 5DIII. For what you shoot, 5DII would probably be just fine. 5DIII is an important upgrade... but the bulk of it is in the much improved AF system, that would be most useful if shooting moving subjects... sports/birds/wildlife, for example. And it's $1300-$1500 more expensive. Only you can say if it's worth that much to you, for your purposes.

Unless you print really large, you won't really see the additional fine detail the full frame cameras capture. However they are good for about one stop higher ISO, have slightly greater dynamic range (retaining a little more detail in shadows and highlights), and render slightler smoother tonal gradations. Full frame also offers a bit more control over depth of field, in part because it's easier to see what you are getting, on the larger format. DOF actually doesn't change with the change in format, however using the same focal length on both formats, you have to move closer if you want to maintain the same framing, which gives shallower depth of field at the same aperture. Alternatively, you can use a longer focal length on the FF camera to maintain the same framing, which also renders a shallower DOF. At the other end of the spectrum, the full frame sensor is less "crowded" with pixel sites, so it's a little less prone to diffraction effects... so you can use a little smaller apertures, too.

Of course, there are also price differences, between crop and full frame cameras.

Okay... once you decide on the format, you can start thinking about lenses. If you stick with crop cameras, you can keep using your 17-55, which is an excellent lens in many ways. Complement it with a wider lens (Tokina 11-16/2.8 or Sigma 8-16 would be a couple options... there are many others).

Also the 17-55 would match up quite well with the 70-200 of your choosing. I'd recommend an IS lens, to help with handholding it... then it's just a matter of the more compact f4 or the larger f2.8. Canon's 70-200s are hard to beat!

If you opt instead for a FF camera, you'll need to replace the 17-55... the most direct replacement option is the 24-70/2.8.

And, with FF, your 50mm will work just fine, but it will no longer be a "short/portrait telephoto" that it acts as on your current crop camera. So you might want to budget to add an 85/1.8 or the Sigma 85/1.4, at least.

70-200 will also work quite well on FF... but will give less "reach". You'd need to add at least a 300mm as well, if you use the longer end of the 200mm on crop now. Or, you might get an 1.4X teleconverter (can't really use a 2X on an f4 lens, you lose AF). Of course, there are other options... such as the 100-400 or Sigma 120-400.

But, decide on your camera first... then that will guide you toward what lenses you need.

I was in the dilemma last week over upgrading my t2i to a 5d mark ii or a 7d, I chose the 7d for the auto focus and a little cheaper to allow for money to save for lens. I currently am renting a 70-200 2.8 isII and a 10-22 for my vacation in Charleston, the 70-200 is a beast and I love it!!!!

amfoto1 wrote in post #14783564
Sorry... but the above is incorrect.... Image quality and high ISO performance of 60D, 7D, T4i are nearly identical to T2i and T3i. They all use a very similar 18MP sensor... and they all process images through a Digic 4 processor (two processors in the 7D to support 8 frames per second shooting), except for the T4i which uses a newer Digic 5 processor.

For the record, I pulled in raw versions of an ISO 6400 shot and ISO 12800 shot from both the T4i and 7D from Imaging Resource's sample archives and brought them into Lightroom 4. From a noise perspective, they are essentially identical. In fact, if anything, the 7D actually has a slight advantage at ISO 12800 (which I found a little surprising).

Bottom line: there is no improvement in the T4i's sensor. All the "improvement" is in the JPEG engine, which is exactly what I was expecting.

Well, there is one important difference: the 5D2 exhibits horizontal banding at ISO 12800 and up. The 5D3 does not, and is about half a stop better on top of that. If very high ISO is your thing, then the 5D3 will be an improvement that could easily be worth the extra money.

Fully agree with the rest of what you said.

RetroBlader wrote in post #14782898
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the 7D yet.

To address your points:
1. The 7D has an 100% viewfinder.
2. The 7D has better high ISO performance than the T2i. (But obviously not as good as the 5D2 or 5D3.)
3. With 5D2 or 5D3, a 70-200 will give you LESS reach than the 55-250. You will need to get the 100-400L or 400/5.6L to get the same reach on a FF body. In case you haven't held one before, the 100-400L is about the same size/weight as the 70-200/2.8. (Sure you can use a 1.4x or 2x extender with the 70-200/2.8L II, but your viewfinder will be much darker and your AF much slower -- remember extenders slow down AF by 50%.)

With the 7D, you can get a 70-300IS (black, compact, lightweight, and decent IQ) or 70-300L (white, heavy, but excellent IQ), or 100-400 or 70-200+1.4x. All of these will give you more reach than the 55-250. Not sure about the 5D3 AF, but the 7D AF is definitely faster and more accurate than the 5D2 AF.

As you said, you have the 17-55. You will be able to continue using it on the 7D.

Love the advice I'm getting in this thread, it's truly helpful! I hadn't read back through this until now, and in fact the reason I came back here in the first place was to ask about the 7D!!! Besides all of the reasons you listed (The 100% viewfinder and supposedly VERY GOOD autofocus system on the 7D), what really has me scratching my head now are the threads I've been pouring through for the various older cameras in which users post their pictures (20d owners thread for example) in which it's clearly obvious that it's not all the camera. It's really got me thinking that the 7D really will answer most of my concerns while I keep learning to become a better photographer. Right now I'm seriously considering ordering a brand new 7D along with the 70-200 F2.8 IS II. I may even use the savings eventually towards a compact camera system such as the Olympus OM-D. Oh so many decisions!

GuitarDTO wrote in post #14787749
the reason I came back here in the first place was to ask about the 7D!!!

The 7D seems to be a good fit for what you are looking for, which was why I said in the beginning of my post, that I was surprised no one else has mentioned it yet.

GuitarDTO wrote in post #14787749
various older cameras in which users post their pictures (20d owners thread for example) in which it's clearly obvious that it's not all the camera.

As the saying goes, it's the archer, not the arrow....

I rarely complain about my gear because I've always known I am the limiting factor in how my photos come out....
:p

GuitarDTO wrote in post #14787749
It's really got me thinking that the 7D really will answer most of my concerns while I keep learning to become a better photographer.

As icing on the cake, the 7D will get a free upgrade via firmware in August :
http://www.dpreview.co​m …-firmware-v2-major-update

GuitarDTO wrote in post #14787749
Love the advice I'm getting in this thread, it's truly helpful! I hadn't read back through this until now, and in fact the reason I came back here in the first place was to ask about the 7D!!! Besides all of the reasons you listed (The 100% viewfinder and supposedly VERY GOOD autofocus system on the 7D), what really has me scratching my head now are the threads I've been pouring through for the various older cameras in which users post their pictures (20d owners thread for example) in which it's clearly obvious that it's not all the camera. It's really got me thinking that the 7D really will answer most of my concerns while I keep learning to become a better photographer. Right now I'm seriously considering ordering a brand new 7D along with the 70-200 F2.8 IS II. I may even use the savings eventually towards a compact camera system such as the Olympus OM-D. Oh so many decisions!

If you're in the United States, you can pick up a Canon-refurbished 7D from CLP for around $1100. That, frankly, is a steal given the camera's capabilities. The downside is that the warranty is for 90 days, not a year. The upside is that it's already been looked over by a Canon technician during the refurbishment process, so it should have no issues whatsoever (not even calibration issues, I'd think).


By the way, an interesting tidbit that I've learned by reading some of the 5D3 threads: the amount of sharpening the 5D3 images require in Lightroom is apparently about the same as that required by the 7D's images. However, there's a lot less complaining about "soft images" in the 5D3 threads than there has been in the 7D threads because people who pick up a 5D3 are predominantly very serious photographers who already know what they're doing, so they already know that they may have to do some sharpening in postproduction to get the most from their shots.

The image quality from the 5D3 will be better than that from the 7D, but it won't be the night and day difference you might otherwise expect until you start hitting very high ISOs. The 7D's image quality is superb once you figure out how to get the most from it, and the skills you learn for that will serve you very well with any camera you later pick up.

Canon is rumored to be coming out with three more bodies plus new lenses before the end of the year. If true I would bet they will be out in time for the holiday shopping season. Personally I'm waiting to see what happens.

I did it!!!! I just ordered with B&H.
I went with the 7D, I added a 70-200 F2.8 IS II, and I threw in an EF-S 10-22 for the hell of it to complete the focal ranges I'm interested in. The crazy part here is the pricing. As many of you may be aware, Canon rebates ended yesterday, and B&H also ended their bundle and save campaign. However, the 7D price went from $1699 body only to $1499 in the last 2 days.

I ended up getting the body for the $1499, the 70-200 for $2099 (the rebate price plus the 200 bundle and save), and the 10-22 for $730. I could have went used with some of this stuff but quite frankly I'm happy with this for brand new equipment. I also tossed in two BW 77mm Haze filters (I know I know, some people hate using these ; ) I also got a spare battery for free.

Overall very excited. This will be more than I ever need for the next several years, and by the time I get the itch again I can only imagine what smaller form factor cameras will be doing by then.

GuitarDTO wrote in post #14792091
I did it!!!! I just ordered with B&H.
I went with the 7D, I added a 70-200 F2.8 IS II, and I threw in an EF-S 10-22 for the hell of it to complete the focal ranges I'm interested in. The crazy part here is the pricing. As many of you may be aware, Canon rebates ended yesterday, and B&H also ended their bundle and save campaign. However, the 7D price went from $1699 body only to $1499 in the last 2 days.

I ended up getting the body for the $1499, the 70-200 for $2099 (the rebate price plus the 200 bundle and save), and the 10-22 for $730. I could have went used with some of this stuff but quite frankly I'm happy with this for brand new equipment. I also tossed in two BW 77mm Haze filters (I know I know, some people hate using these ; ) I also got a spare battery for free.

Overall very excited. This will be more than I ever need for the next several years, and by the time I get the itch again I can only imagine what smaller form factor cameras will be doing by then.

That's awesome!!

GuitarDTO wrote in post #14792091
I did it!!!! I just ordered with B&H.
I went with the 7D, I added a 70-200 F2.8 IS II, and I threw in an EF-S 10-22 for the hell of it to complete the focal ranges I'm interested in. The crazy part here is the pricing. As many of you may be aware, Canon rebates ended yesterday, and B&H also ended their bundle and save campaign. However, the 7D price went from $1699 body only to $1499 in the last 2 days.

I ended up getting the body for the $1499, the 70-200 for $2099 (the rebate price plus the 200 bundle and save), and the 10-22 for $730. I could have went used with some of this stuff but quite frankly I'm happy with this for brand new equipment. I also tossed in two BW 77mm Haze filters (I know I know, some people hate using these ; ) I also got a spare battery for free.

Overall very excited. This will be more than I ever need for the next several years, and by the time I get the itch again I can only imagine what smaller form factor cameras will be doing by then.

Excellent. The 7D is a beast of a camera. You're going to love it. Just be sure to give it a chance as far as autofocusing goes.

Also, be sure to test it out thoroughly during the B&H return window. I'd test the autofocus, in particular, thoroughly in order to ensure that it operates as it should. Standard single point mode autofocus Just Work in one-shot mode. You might have to perform some microfocus adjustments in order to get it working absolutely perfectly, but it'll reward you handsomely once you've got things dialed in.

My 7D is supposed to be delivered Monday, and I'm having second thoughts ; ( For one, I've been reading on the forums that the 7D can actually be more difficult and require more post processing to get sharp images than the T2i. Is there any truth to this?

Besides that, I've been really thinking about my uses more and more. I am getting more and more into people portraiture, and aren't 5d's king of the ring when it comes to that? I just feel like since I already am pretty happy with the Rebel T2i and planned to keep it regardless, then I should make the new camera either a 5D II or III. I am having such a hard time deciding if the advanced autofocus is really needed for an extra $1500 ; ( Basically feeling like I might have made the wrong decision, yet am also feeling buyers remorse at the mere thought of buying a 5D Mark III. The thing that won't change is I am really enjoying photography and plan to put this camera through it's paces for a long time to come. Is the 5D III a camera that will do the trick for years?

Thanks for any advice/reassurance/poi​nters. I'm curious if others have faced similar dilemmas

I did it. I just ordered the 5D III with 24-105 lens!!!!!!! I also got a return authorization for the 7D and the 10-22 lens. I almost went into a coronary attack looking at my bank account as I can't get refunded for the 7D until it gets returned!

I would have always second guessed my decision. Now, I have no excuses, I'm going to be so motivated to go out and shoot and not worry about what gear I am using. I can't wait to start practicing becoming a better photographer with this thing.