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FORUMS General Gear Talk Flash and Studio Lighting 
Thread started 30 Jul 2012 (Monday) 16:44
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Yongnuo YN-622C Controller Trigger

 
dmward
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Dec 31, 2012 21:36 |  #1576

TridenTBoy wrote in post #15429234 (external link)
I use rechargeable batteries... it's not a problem.

It really makes no sense why someone would have trouble with rechargeable batteries versus non-rechargeable... They're the same thing to the object using them. :confused:

The rechargables don't have the same voltage, even when fully charged. Some electronics are voltage sensitive and the lower voltage of the rechargables makes them unreliable. Most notable, in my experience are Pocket Wizard ControlTL FlexTT5s. I was told when calling about unreliable performance that rechargeable batteries were likely cause. Changed to Alkys and the problems went away.


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talbot_sunbeam
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Dec 31, 2012 21:48 |  #1577

TridenTBoy wrote in post #15429234 (external link)
It really makes no sense why someone would have trouble with rechargeable batteries versus non-rechargeable... They're the same thing to the object using them. :confused:

No they are not, some of the electrical characteristics are quite different - whether this has any affect depends on the tolerances of the gear you are using them in.



7D, 450D | 17-55, 10-22, 55-250, 50 1.8, 580EXII | YN568II | YN622 x3 | Magic Lantern | (Still) Jonesing for a 70-200 2.8...
Turns out a gripped 7D + 622 + 580exII + 70-200 2.8 IS MK2 is BLOODY HEAVY! Who knew?!!

  
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tpatana
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Dec 31, 2012 22:50 |  #1578

talbot_sunbeam wrote in post #15429490 (external link)
No they are not, some of the electrical characteristics are quite different - whether this has any affect depends on the tolerances of the gear you are using them in.

True, but for using them the voltage level 1.5V vs. 1.2V is the only one that really matters. And it's really rare to find a device that doesn't accept rechargeables instead of standard batteries. I never owned one, and I'd be curious to test device which is claimed to fail with rechargeables.

Also for flash use, the rechargeables give plenty more current, so they recharge flash much faster. So for flash use, they are preferred instead of normal batteries.


Have: Many cameras with some Ls
Kendo.Photography (external link) / Kendo@Facebook (external link) / TeroPhotography.com (external link) / Tero@Facebook (external link) / CF card Speedtest on my gear (external link)

  
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Trailboy
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Jan 01, 2013 09:01 |  #1579

talbot_sunbeam wrote in post #15429224 (external link)
Thanks for making the flash trigger that we all wanted..! :cool:

Yep. Excellent work YN.




  
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Whortleberry
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Jan 01, 2013 14:39 |  #1580

tpatana wrote in post #15429692 (external link)
True, but for using them the voltage level 1.5V vs. 1.2V is the only one that really matters. And it's really rare to find a device that doesn't accept rechargeables instead of standard batteries. I never owned one, and I'd be curious to test device which is claimed to fail with rechargeables.

The simple fact that an item "accepts" rechargeables does not in any way imply that they are ideal. In a two cell arrangement, such as is under discussion here, circuitry is very often designed to cutout completely when voltage drops below a certain level. Where there is no cut-out circuit, units can become unreliable performers - often the case with radio triggers.

When prime condition rechargeable AA cells come off the charger, assuming an 'intelligent' Minus Δ V (-δv)* charger rather than a less reliable thermal cut-out type, they have a voltage of 1.4 to 1.58v. As the cell cools to ambient temperature, the voltage drops to the notional** 1.2v marked. Within a relatively short period of time (hours rather than days or weeks) the actual voltage declines slightly to somewhere in the region of 1.1 to 1.15v. Place two cells in a chain and the starting voltage of your unit is likely to be in the 2.2 to 2.3v range.
*While usually sold as 'intelligent' chargers, these are not without their failings for NiMH cells as the voltage change at 'full' is notoriously difficult to detect; variable as a function of charge rate and internal temperature.
**Notional in the sense that this is the intended average voltage among a selection of these cells but it is not an absolute value. Variations can and do occur.

If the 'low voltage' detection of the circuit is designed to function at (eg) 2.0v then you have very little overhead. If, as frequently happens, one of the two cells in your chain is a little under par, you can quite easily find that you have put freshly charged cells into the unit and yet performance is compromised. With some circuits, the item will fail to switch on or will only function momentarily (my wife has an Olympus P & S which does exactly this). In other cases, as with radio flash triggers, while the unit may appear to be fully funcional; in fact the performance is compromised and they become unreliable. This despite the fact that "freshly charged" rechargeable cells have been used.

On the other hand, alkalines start off at a notional 1.5v so a 2 cell chain has a notional 3v as a starting point. This gives you much greater overhead and far more scope for voltage drop before any irregularities in use become apparent. Many of us have proved for ourselves that YN-622C, Pixel King and (as mentioned in David Ward's post, above) Pocket Wizard ControlTL FlexTT5s are sensitive to voltage in terms of reliability. And that is what we seek, reliability. If this means using single-use alkalines rather than rechargeables then that is a price I for one am more than happy to pay. A pair of alkalines in these triggers is likely to last months under even the heaviest of use, hardly expensive! This is the only place where I don't use high quality rechargeable cells - simply because they are neither as good nor as reliable.

tpatana wrote in post #15429692 (external link)
Also for flash use, the rechargeables give plenty more current, so they recharge flash much faster. So for flash use, they are preferred instead of normal batteries.

I wouldn't argue with the intent of your assertions here, but feel that in the context of flash triggers (the topic of this thread, after all) introducing this matter is likely to lead to confusion. Flash triggers do not require "plenty of current".


Phil ǁ Kershaw Soho Reflex: 4¼" Ross Xpres, 6½" Aldis, Super XX/ABC Pyro in 24 DDS, HP3/Meritol Metol in RFH, Johnson 'Scales' brand flash powder. Kodak Duo Six-20/Verichrome Pan. Other odd bits over the decades, simply to get the job done - not merely to polish and brag about cos I'm too mean to buy the polish!
FlickR (external link) ◄► "The Other Yongnuo User Guide v4.12" by Clive Bolton (external link) ◄► UK Railway Photographs 1906-79 (external link)

  
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tpatana
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Jan 01, 2013 15:34 |  #1581

Whortleberry wrote in post #15431688 (external link)
Many of us have proved for ourselves that YN-622C, Pixel King and (as mentioned in David Ward's post, above) Pocket Wizard ControlTL FlexTT5s are sensitive to voltage in terms of reliability. And that is what we seek, reliability. If this means using single-use alkalines rather than rechargeables then that is a price I for one am more than happy to pay. A pair of alkalines in these triggers is likely to last months under even the heaviest of use, hardly expensive! This is the only place where I don't use high quality rechargeable cells - simply because they are neither as good nor as reliable.

I agree, if it's proven that the rechargeables were really the cause for unreliable operation. So far I doubt, unless someone really can make good experiment comparing the batteries.

I haven't opened any of those units, but I would assume any of them has a regulator to start with, and if it's done properly, it'll accept really wide range of voltages. Meaning the voltage for each cell can drop significantly until the operation stops. Maybe cheap Chinese units save money and use lousy regulators, but anyone else I would assume have wider range of input voltage.

So if someone has device he/she suspects will fail with rechargeables, please test them and report how/when it fails. Reliability is important, agreed, but I'm using rechargeables until they fail.


Have: Many cameras with some Ls
Kendo.Photography (external link) / Kendo@Facebook (external link) / TeroPhotography.com (external link) / Tero@Facebook (external link) / CF card Speedtest on my gear (external link)

  
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Whortleberry
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Jan 01, 2013 15:52 |  #1582

tpatana wrote in post #15431884 (external link)
Reliability is important, agreed, but I'm using rechargeables until they fail.

Democracy brings with it the right to free choice. Good luck!


Phil ǁ Kershaw Soho Reflex: 4¼" Ross Xpres, 6½" Aldis, Super XX/ABC Pyro in 24 DDS, HP3/Meritol Metol in RFH, Johnson 'Scales' brand flash powder. Kodak Duo Six-20/Verichrome Pan. Other odd bits over the decades, simply to get the job done - not merely to polish and brag about cos I'm too mean to buy the polish!
FlickR (external link) ◄► "The Other Yongnuo User Guide v4.12" by Clive Bolton (external link) ◄► UK Railway Photographs 1906-79 (external link)

  
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talbot_sunbeam
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Jan 01, 2013 16:36 |  #1583

tpatana wrote in post #15431884 (external link)
So if someone has device he/she suspects will fail with rechargeables, please test them and report how/when it fails. Reliability is important, agreed, but I'm using rechargeables until they fail.

I think the general consensus is that people *have* used rechargeabls in these devices and noted the unreliable performance, which completely went away when using regular alkalines.

Looking into the matter was where the likely explanation about voltage tolerances came in.

But of course, you are free to ignore other people's evidence and findings and do whatever works for you.

Personally, I use non-rechargeables in my triggers and keep my nimhs for the high-output situations they are good for - powering flashes...



7D, 450D | 17-55, 10-22, 55-250, 50 1.8, 580EXII | YN568II | YN622 x3 | Magic Lantern | (Still) Jonesing for a 70-200 2.8...
Turns out a gripped 7D + 622 + 580exII + 70-200 2.8 IS MK2 is BLOODY HEAVY! Who knew?!!

  
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tpatana
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Jan 01, 2013 16:40 |  #1584

That's strange. Care to detail what happens at that "unreliable" situation? Triggers completely power off? Missed shots occasionally?


Have: Many cameras with some Ls
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CliveyBoy
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Jan 01, 2013 16:55 |  #1585

I have frequently posted the "low battery" point as programmed by the design engineer - 2.2 volts.

Read what Whortleberry said above, with this level in mind. You will see that the cutoff point is very close to the nominal NiMH fully-charged level.

I throw out at least one rechargeable each month, due to failure. It only takes one to go low!

I have now included the cutoff value in the Guide -
• Battery low – on startup or half-shutter; Status will rapidly wink Red/Green, and the CH and GP indicators will dimly wink also. If the voltage is too low (defined in firmware as total 2.2 volts), the 622 will turn off automatically.


Clive, and Great G/D Abbie
50D; 580EXII, 430EXII, 550EX, YN685EX; YN-622C II, YN622C-TX and YN560-TX controllers TOYUG II v5.10 YN622 System Guide (external link)
I tried retiring, but gave it up - it's a dead end

  
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CliveyBoy
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Jan 01, 2013 16:57 |  #1586

tpatana wrote in post #15432117 (external link)
That's strange. Care to detail what happens at that "unreliable" situation? Triggers completely power off? Missed shots occasionally?

What is strange is that you do not accept the research and experience of others!

I agree wholeheartedly with Talbot-Sunbeam! Prudence and wisdom.


Clive, and Great G/D Abbie
50D; 580EXII, 430EXII, 550EX, YN685EX; YN-622C II, YN622C-TX and YN560-TX controllers TOYUG II v5.10 YN622 System Guide (external link)
I tried retiring, but gave it up - it's a dead end

  
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tpatana
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Jan 01, 2013 17:26 |  #1587

CliveyBoy wrote in post #15432188 (external link)
What is strange is that you do not accept the research and experience of others!

I was just asking for what happens, pfft. This was the first time I read about not using rechargeables, and also from all the devices I have home, non of them has failed for me. If someone tells how they tested it, I'm happy to accept it and switch to standard batteries.


Have: Many cameras with some Ls
Kendo.Photography (external link) / Kendo@Facebook (external link) / TeroPhotography.com (external link) / Tero@Facebook (external link) / CF card Speedtest on my gear (external link)

  
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Whortleberry
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Jan 01, 2013 18:23 |  #1588

CliveyBoy wrote in post #15432177 (external link)
I have frequently posted the "low battery" point as programmed by the design engineer - 2.2 volts.

I have now included the cutoff value in the Guide -
• Battery low – on startup or half-shutter; Status will rapidly wink Red/Green, and the CH and GP indicators will dimly wink also. If the voltage is too low (defined in firmware as total 2.2 volts), the 622 will turn off automatically.

I would add to that the point that immediately before you reach the cut-off voltage, firing may become erratic. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't - especially, for example, if firing a burst of 3+ shots in quick succession - but there's no real way to predict this. This is merely a little annoying if you are playing at photography as a pleasant pastime; if it is your livelihood then it becomes very serious very rapidly. Clients rarely accept excuses, they just tell their friends that you are unreliable. Not nice. Definitely not good for repeat business!

Notwithstanding all that, if you want to save $3.50 by not buying a pack of alkalines then that is your privilege and something that none of us would try to take away. But you will get caught out one day. It'll probably be a cold day, when voltages drop anyway, but that's your choice.


Phil ǁ Kershaw Soho Reflex: 4¼" Ross Xpres, 6½" Aldis, Super XX/ABC Pyro in 24 DDS, HP3/Meritol Metol in RFH, Johnson 'Scales' brand flash powder. Kodak Duo Six-20/Verichrome Pan. Other odd bits over the decades, simply to get the job done - not merely to polish and brag about cos I'm too mean to buy the polish!
FlickR (external link) ◄► "The Other Yongnuo User Guide v4.12" by Clive Bolton (external link) ◄► UK Railway Photographs 1906-79 (external link)

  
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CliveyBoy
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Jan 01, 2013 18:38 |  #1589

Whortlberry - right on!

What concerns (irritates) me is inadequate advice based on assumptions. Especially when made by me.

A pspilot user in the dslr-forum (Germany) has argued similar nonsense based on assumptions he has made as an electronics testing company head. He remains unconvinced, but some of his supporters got it. Oh, well!

"I regularly cross in front of oncoming buses, and haven't been hit. So it will be safe this time, too." Yeah, right.


Clive, and Great G/D Abbie
50D; 580EXII, 430EXII, 550EX, YN685EX; YN-622C II, YN622C-TX and YN560-TX controllers TOYUG II v5.10 YN622 System Guide (external link)
I tried retiring, but gave it up - it's a dead end

  
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elv
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Jan 01, 2013 22:12 |  #1590

tpatana wrote in post #15432268 (external link)
I was just asking for what happens, pfft. This was the first time I read about not using rechargeables, and also from all the devices I have home, non of them has failed for me. If someone tells how they tested it, I'm happy to accept it and switch to standard batteries.

You don't have to use Alkalines all the time if your'e not having any issues.

But if you do start having reliability problems its very handy to know the batteries may be the cause. The test is you put Alkalines in an suddenly the problem stops ;-)a

Also as others mentioned if you have one Nimh go bad the rest are only as good as that faulty one, that has caught people out a number of times with all different triggers. If you have a fancy charger that conditions each cell and points out any issues that certainly helps.


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