Ringflash?

Curtis N wrote in post #14800732
Case, you're getting on my nerves, man.Actually, "sunny 16" refers to a thumbrule indicating a shutter speed of 1/ISO in direct sunlight. So even in direct sunlight you should be good at 1/250 f/10 ISO 100.

You can be outdoors in the shade, or on a cloudy day, with 3 or 4 stops less light. It's still daylight.

I don't know why you feel compelled to slam SJRobbins' images. We can all see them and judge for ourselves.

As for Mr. Robbins, if you want to provide valuable information, meter that orbis thingy with a flash meter at a measured distance, outdoors at night, multiply the aperture reading by the distance to get a guide number and let us know what it is. Then we can do our own calculations.

Careful Curtis, i never once slammed his images, i never said whether they were bad or good, i simply stated that they are not what one would defy as daylight, i also know very well what the sunny f16 rule is and thats why i mentioned it, its directly linked to the "Power" output of the difference in flashes and the limitations around them. The shutter speed iso is not mentioned because i hope people know about it and know how its not directly relevant to a flash exposure. In my post i talk about power limitations in daylight, it should be obvious to all what im talking about. Hes trying to tell the OP that the hotshoe flashes are perfectly fine in daylight and provides two images for his argument, when you shoot in the shade, you shoot in the shade, when you shoot overcast, you shoot overcast, when you shoot ambient you're shooting ambient, when you talk about daylight, you're talking about the sunny rule.

The two images are obviously in dark shade at best and very low light comparable to the current topic, he is not doing anyone a favor by telling them a hotshoe is totally fine in daylight when it obviously has strong limitations. Telling me in the UK theres lots of overcast is not an excuse unless the OP lives in the UK. Someone is asking a question, one should provide the proper information. If all he had said was that the hotshoe flash +RF adapter can generally put out enough light for fill in daylight and will be enough for key with overcast at specific distances, i wouldn't have anything to argue. But he didn't.

Don't really care if i get on your nerves for being right and trying to get the correct information out. If i prepare a piece of gear for "daylight" i prepare it for the worst case of possible daylight.

Csae wrote in post #14803360
Careful Curtis, i never once slammed his images, i never said whether they were bad or good, i simply stated that they are not what one would defy as daylight.

They are obviously in dark shade at best and very low light comparable to the current topic, he is not doing anyone a favor by telling them a hotshoe is totally fine in daylight when it obviously has strong limitations. Telling me in the UK theres lots of overcast is not an excuse unless the OP lives in the UK.

Don't really care if i get on your nerves for being right and trying to get the correct information out.

And telling people that HSFs can't be used in daylight because they can't overpower strong midday sun is correct information? I was quite clear they have their limitations, it was *you* that was posting disinformation by claiming they can't really be used at all *outside*, which is clearly utter nonsense. Perhaps you feel the need to defend your own purchase choices, even though nobody was knocking them, but please, don't try and claim you're trying to dispel falsehoods when you're clearly not.

SJRobbins wrote in post #14803369
And telling people that HSFs can't be used in daylight because they can't overpower strong midday sun is correct information? I was quite clear they have their limitations, it was *you* that was posting disinformation by claiming they can't really be used at all *outside*, which is clearly utter nonsense. Perhaps you feel the need to defend your own purchase choices, even though nobody was knocking them, but please, don't try and claim you're trying to dispel falsehoods when you're clearly not.

Quote me where i said that, go ahead i'll wait.

You guys must of not had your coffee.

I repeat what i stated, i'll even quote myself for you:

Csae wrote in post #14799042
A hotshoe flash is already not THAT powerful, the adapters knock a good stop at best off it, distance knocks even more, you're not really supposed to shoot head and shoulders at 40mm, but if thats how close you need to get enough power, imagine being at the standard min of 85mm. Another thing to note is even at 40mm on a head & shoulders, the catchlight of the orbis is quite tiny!

On the flipside even the weakest RF (The abr8) is like f16 at 85mm on the -weakest- setting WITH diffusion and without the reflector, which if you're looking for fill might be a drawback actually.

The power is non-comparable for outdoors though, a hotshoe is gonna show its limitations, you're gonna be running for the shade quite quickly on the flip side, indoors or in a studio or in a dark shade, the hotshoe flashes+adapter is gonna be ALOT lighter and easier to handle. So its not like one is better then another, some of the hotshoe adapters even allow ETTL to work which is neat if you're into that.

I specifically try to list both sides of the medal on both accounts for the OP to make his own judgement.

Since you guys are obviously doubting me i looked up the EV loss on the adapters, they are listed as about 2EV. I took my 580EX, set it to full power, then had about 8' or the normal distance for my 85mm head n shoulders shot, 1/125 iso100 f9 -2EV we're around what F5.6 ? 1/125 f5.6 iso100 ? Compared to 1/125 iso100 f16 thats gonna be your key?

GL with daylight guys, i'll be here if you need a full body shot. I apologize if proper measurements get on your nerves which is funny since the OP should be the only one mad...

"Oh no its totally fine, look at this picture i took in daylight! .....iso100 f2.8 1/80"

So misleading, what if the OP doesn't know how to check exifs and thinks that you actually overpowered the sun to that extent?

There you go - a quote from you - which was the exact quote I said was misleading in the first place. At no point did I say they were good for overpowering the sun, I even said you'd struggle in bright ambient, but, and I'll say this yet again, outside is not *just* midday direct sunlight.

Csae wrote in post #14803407
they are listed as about 2EV. I took my 580EX, set it to full power, then had about 8' or the normal distance for my 85mm head n shoulders shot, 1/125 iso100 f9 -2EV we're around what F5.6 ? 1/125 f5.6 iso100 ? Compared to 1/125 iso100 f16 thats gonna be your key?

GL with daylight guys, i'll be here if you need a full body shot. I apologize if proper measurements get on your nerves which is funny since the OP should be the only one mad...

"Oh no its totally fine, look at this picture i took in daylight! .....iso100 f2.8 1/80"

So misleading, what if the OP doesn't know how to check exifs and thinks that you actually overpowered the sun to that extent?

SJRobbins wrote in post #14803433
There you go - a quote from you - which was the exact quote I said was misleading in the first place. At no point did I say they were good for overpowering the sun, I even said you'd struggle in bright ambient, but, and I'll say this yet again, outside is not *just* midday direct sunlight.

Of course not, but i point that out, that power limitation is something he has to be aware of. You do not, instead you pawn off a 1/80 iso100 f2.8 like you're fighting the sun.

I'm walking from the thread though.

Pretend whatever you want, if you don't want to learn, its not my burden.

Be aware that even your 2nd shot the RF is not providing real "Fill", your point was blatant misrepresentation on both accounts, i took the time to measure the actual output and know by fact that it will not fight the sun and be completely unusable and have me running off for the shade, which is what i said.

ps:You're right, i should of made it more clear that it is usable outdoors under very specific conditions, i thought it was clear via context but i guess not. To be even more specific, i did mention adapter, because it does knock power from it, lots of people managing to use their HSF in full daylight for a bit of fill via various tricks its the Adapter that kinda puts it in the hamper for me by knocking power away.

As much as I dislike arguing, in these sorts of back and forths a lot of things get qualified and should help anybody out there trying to learn.

SJRobbins wrote in post #14803292
There was a long thread on the Strobist group about the various HSF ring flashes and how efficient they were, and although plenty of people took readings with meters, as with any modifier that spreads the light, a reading like that only tells you part of the story, hence why where were people saying "it eats 3 stops of light?!?!" when in reality it doesn't, because the spread of light is substantially different - obviously it eats *some* light, but how much is hard to quantify with a single number. I'm not suggesting you don't know any of that, but that's why I generally have no real interest in the numbers (other than apples to apples comparisons), but I do agree everyone should look to find the limitations of their hardware - whether you do that with gut feeling or a set of numbers, that's personal preference.

very good point! ring flash output is hard to compare to direct flash.

Green Li wrote in post #14811511
ring flash output is hard to compare to direct flash.

I disagree. All it takes is a flash meter and a reading from a measured distance in the absence of ambient light.

What confuses some people is that flash units have multiple guide numbers for multiple zoom settings. Ring lights don't have that adjustibility so they only have one guide number.

And with that guide number, anyone who passed sophomore algebra can accurately judge a flash unit's usefulness in a given situation.

Curtis N wrote in post #14812000
I disagree. All it takes is a flash meter and a reading from a measured distance in the absence of ambient light.

What confuses some people is that flash units have multiple guide numbers for multiple zoom settings. Ring lights don't have that adjustibility so they only have one guide number.

And with that guide number, anyone who passed sophomore algebra can accurately judge a flash unit's usefulness in a given situation.

yes, you're right, you can measure the guide number, but how to compare to a flash gun? when can you accurately say that this ring light is 2 stops weaker? I guess you would have to measure the light spread angle.

Green Li wrote in post #14812009
when can you accurately say that this ring light is 2 stops weaker?

You can say that when the meter gives a reading two stops less than the reading with direcet flash.

Of course it would only apply to one zoom setting, so you can't make a generalized comparison. But you also can't say, "The Canon 580EX has a guide number of 58 meters." without a qualifying statement of zoom setting.

Curtis N wrote in post #14814169
You can say that when the meter gives a reading two stops less than the reading with direcet flash.

Of course it would only apply to one zoom setting, so you can't make a generalized comparison. But you also can't say, "The Canon 580EX has a guide number of 58 meters." without a qualifying statement of zoom setting.

here you go: http://roundflash.com …a75c2e4ad8082a1​d544e90d39

Hey Curtis, since you seemed interested... RoundFlash just got much better: RoundFlash Magnetic Edition 5

Thanks.

They're claiming f/16 ISO 400 (same as f/8 ISO 100) at a distance of 3 feet with a 580EX II.
8 * 3 = 24 ft. guide number. I'm typically at f/8 or f/9 when shooting in full sun, and that range isn't useful for that environment. Even on a cloudy day you're only going to get 6 or 8 feet.

Guide number on a bare 580EX II ranges from 50 to 191 feet, depending on zoom setting. So the RoundFlash gives you half the range (2 stops less) than a naked flash with the 14mm wide panel.

I'm sure that device is useful for some people, but not for me. Battery flash units just don't have the horsepower when they're diffused. That's why Paul Buff is selling Vagabond Mini power units like hotcakes. There's no substitute for serious strobe power in the field.

Curtis N wrote in post #14924822
Thanks.

They're claiming f/16 ISO 400 (same as f/8 ISO 100) at a distance of 3 feet with a 580EX II.
8 * 3 = 24 ft. guide number. I'm typically at f/8 or f/9 when shooting in full sun, and that range isn't useful for that environment. Even on a cloudy day you're only going to get 6 or 8 feet.

Guide number on a bare 580EX II ranges from 50 to 191 feet, depending on zoom setting. So the RoundFlash gives you half the range (2 stops less) than a naked flash with the 14mm wide panel.

I'm sure that device is useful for some people, but not for me. Battery flash units just don't have the horsepower when they're diffused. That's why Paul Buff is selling Vagabond Mini power units like hotcakes. There's no substitute for serious strobe power in the field.

all true, but i think there is still a market for RayFlash, Orbis, RoundFlash, o-Flash, etc. speedlights have enough power for indoor use even when heavily diffused. outdoors, ring adapters are still OK for fill light. just my 2 cents.

Love my roundflash, this is a test shot on my poor wife and she gave me here best funny crosseyed face for this test shot. Easy to use, great light and I was shooting at 5.6 with a 600 exrt at about 5 feet, probably could get 7.1 out of it.