mr-14ex or mt-24ex for mp-e?

So I realize I need flash usage for macro photography. I have a 580ex and and an off-camera cord but this set up is cumbersome because insects dont wait for you to set up the 580ex and then focus. So I either need a mr-14ex or mt-24ex or a flash (macro) bracket to allow me to position the flash at any angle I want.

I guess it would be more convenient to have a flash attached to the lens for macro photography. If so, which one?

A lot of reviewers mentioned that the mt-24ex does not work well with the mp-e because it sticks out further and often does not illuminate the front of the subject, or not completely ot as conveniently as the mr-14ex because the flashes do not extend beyond the rim/thread of the lens.
I think that the mt-24ex is better suited for the 100/150/180mm macro lenses.

Any comments or suggestions?

Or is a flash bracket with macro arms/connections a better way?

You don't seem to be getting a lot of answer on this, so I'll chime in even though I don't do a lot of macro photography. I use the 100mm f2.8 macro and the MR-14EX flash. It works quite well for me. I can set the lighting ratios on the ring light, which provides for a small degree of modeling.

I've never tried using a flash bracket with arms, but I have used the 550EX and an off-camera cord and found that just too hard to control.

I hope this helps somewhat. Maybe someone with more macro experience will chime in.

Mark

The MT-24EX pretty much gives you the "macro arms" due to the ability to move the flash heads independently. This is not an option with the 14.

If you get the MT-24EX, there is an extension piece you need if you have the 180 Macro.

I have the MR14ex and it is certainly a compact unit that is easy to adjust power settings on if necessary. It also acts as a master unit for slave flashes. I dont find the modellig feature particularly effective (adjusting power ratios between the bulbs), the light tends to be quite uniform.
A lot of top class work is done by people using a diffused 430EX or similar off camera ,mounted on a bracket with a ball and socket head.

Hi Corrupted:
I am having a little trouble "spatially" trying to understand your question. Of course the 24EX works with the MP65, lighting the foreground. You still need to use a slower shutter speed, higher ISO (not desireable) or wireless or bracket hot shoe flashes to illuminate the background. That's why I like still using wireless hot shoe flash, even when I use the 24EX or sometimes multiple flashes instead of the 24EX.

I do not own the MP65, but I thought both the 14EX or 24EX clamps attach to the front of the MP65 lens, and move out with the lens barrel as it moves to higher magnification focus. Am I wrong? You own the lens, I do not (I own the 24EX flash), so you'll know if the lens clamping attachment ring area is back on the stationary barrel or the front moving barrel. If the clamp ring attaches to the front barrel, then there is no problem wih frontal illumination with the 24EX.

In terms of shadowing and directionality, it's related to size of the subject, versus size of the flash - light source. A modest bug being hit by the small head of the Canon 24EX flash is heck of a lot better coverage than a person being hit by the 580EX! But, I had trouble shooting this giant edible puffball under dense shade, and had to resort to reflectors and hot shoe (the two middle are gold refectors): http://aesop.rutgers.e​du …/Plants_n_Fungi​/index.htm

I always got a lot of help on Canon macro TTL flash from Steve Hoffman's web site. He really uses the gear, and understands how position of the flashes affects their estinguising effects on exposing the macro background. He uses same lens you have.
http://www.sphoto.com …ech.html#closeu​psandflash

I think the 24EX would have more benefits at very close MP65 distances compared to using bracketed or wireless hot shoe flashes for macro work with telezooms and 500D diopter.
It's odd, but after all these years, no one has produced a better "macro flash in the field" book than John Shaw's 1987 Close-ups in Nature. ISBN 0-8174-4052-6. It is Nikon, but the principles are the same.

Sometimes, I need the background illumination more than the foreground illumination. So I go home, get one of the kids, and make them hold a Canon wireless flash, or a circular reflector, or piece of white board to bounce light into the subject area. Of course, this does not work when you're alone chasing bugs.

Has this helped at all, or am I completely not understanding the Q?
Jack

Jack and others,

You all helped me a ton.

But in particular Jack, yes both t he mr and mt flashes attach to the front of the mp-e. But the ring shaped flash does not extend beyond the mouth of the lens. So if you set the mt and mr flash ona table and looked at them from an angle, the same angle for horse racing . You know, to see which horse crossed the line first?

Well according to reviews ive read, the mt-24ex wins the race, or extends a little more beyond than the ring around the lens barrel.

You are right, the barrel extends a bunch and the flashes also move with the barrel (extend) because it is attached to the front.

So some suggest the MR-14ex, others the mt-24ex.
Also as Todd mentioned, the mt-24ex arms do act like flash arms.

I guess I may need to test both flashes on the mp-e to decide which one I want.

Which do you prefer Jack, since you own both.

All right, now I get it better.
Hands down 24EX. Reason is the 24EX heads have push button quick releases. So, you can be holding 20D & Grip in one hand, or on tripod. You take off one of the two 24EX heads from the lens barrel clamp and hold it out front, side light, or background light aimed behind subject. You can hold it as far as 24EX cable comfortably stretches, mine about 0.5 meter, from hot shoe controller on camera body.

If you intend to do a one-handed hold, stop drinking coffee, lift weights, and do yoga to get muscles and breathing coordinated. In other words, use a tripod and cable release. One hand has the cable release, the other holds one of the 24EX heads. In studio set up, the other head, or the wireless 420 slave just goes on a mini-ball head and table top pod. Taking one of 24EX heads off works well when camera is vertical portrait position.

The 24EX is kind of expensive, limited. I constantly have to re-read the manual 2-3 times. Used as I note above, sometimes you have to cut a piece of plastic milk jug and make a diffuser for the front on head.

If it were not so darn expensive, and bulky to carry in the field, I think this Novoflex bracket, used with one 550EX and a 420EX slave offers more light power flexibility with the MP65.
http://www.bhphotovide​o.com …EG&addedTroughT​ype=search

The 24EX offers expensive macro portability, not lighting power or flexibility. With a 550 and 420 slave, you can bounce the light more.

The 14EX provides a more shadowless, mellow front lighting. It is more "clinical" light, technically excellent, but not sure I like it for critters. I made the equivalent with daylight FL bulbs here, just because I was trying to show the difference between parasite exit wound holes versus spiracles:
http://aesop.rutgers.e​du …ato_Hornworm_Pa​rasite.htm
Technically decent, but flat and uninteresting photo. This was about 0.7x

wow Jack.

The above summarized each flash's capabilities and limits adequately.

The issue though, there is a significant difference in price. I say significant because the difference of 200$ could be applied else where. Such as Angle C Finder (200$) or a macro-focus rail. Even though im personally waiting for the RRS B150-B macro rail.

Damn Jack, that photo is interesting on so many levels. Its amazing what you are interested in.

Jacks said it all,. but here's my brief (and less experienced) opinion anyway.

The twin light is faaar more flexible than the ring lite..

the ring lite gives essentially one look,. that is sometimes desirable,. often not.

The twin light can get you close the ring lite look,. but offers so much more.

My point exactly. I'm not sure you need nor want the macro flash 24EX!
You already own the 580EX. All you need is a used 420EX for an optional slave and...

Get some flat metal stock, say 1" wide x 1/8" or 3/16" thick from hardware or electric supplier. Buy a few feet to do experiments. Then get a Novoflex mini-ball flash shoe holder, like:
http://www.bhphotovide​o.com …EG&addedTroughT​ype=search
or
http://www.bhphotovide​o.com …EG&addedTroughT​ype=search
Bend and mount this so the 580EX on the Off-Shoe Cord 2 on the ball is way out by lens front. You'll benefit from some plastic milk jug diffuser out there.
That rig takes care of most macro, handheld or tripod. When you need to light the background, or bounce light add the 420EX on its light shoe that comes with it.

I also buy sheets of $2.99 foam core white poster board and cut chunks to carry with me for reflecting flash bounce. Very neutral white for $2.99! Cheaper than PhotoFlex circular reflectors, and cheaper to replace when they're soiled from the field.

For under $200 you'll be far ahead of the Canon 24EX.
I don't know where he lurks, but PM "LordV" on these forums because he built one and his portfolio has stunning photos.
There are lots of directions for home built macro flash brackets at Nikonians, Earthboundlight tips, or others places. If I can find links I'll send them. The only reason I have the 24EX is because I had an opportunity for a job to buy it for project use.

Anyway, some people I work with, whether or not they get paid from images, use the Adorama "store brand" dual direction macro flash rail. just mount an Arca Swiss clamp or direct to camera. It's like $150 cheaper than the competitors, and actually better in many ways. Just because it does not have a super rep like the RRS does not mean it should be avoided.

You could have a dual rail, and complete flash setup for under $450, and put the balance to glass!

Jack

Corrupted:
Here's what I mean:
http://www.rlephoto.co​m/tech/flash_bracket01​.htm

Here's the one from LordV of these Forums. Check him in macro section:
http://www.flickr.com/​photos/lordv/29274672/

You need to make this for you MP65, with existing 580 and off shoe cord, more than you need the 24EX. Then just get the used 420EX for wireless backgrounds.

As I said, many of these designs out there, but this one fits a Canon collar.

Jack

Jack,

Right now it seems like the 420ex + my current 580EX and OCSC2 would be enough. But later on I may be on the "move" in regards to macro photography. The 420ex slave scenario works perfectly for when I have time to set up a shot. Be it in the studio(home) or in the garden. Immobile subjects can be handled with the 2 flahes and the OCSC2.
The reason I was leaning towards the mr/mt flashes was because I later plan on picking up a Simga 150 macro and then the mr/mt would be very useful in terms of flexibility and convenince. Not saying that a 580ex and OCSC2 would not also do the job.

Which rail were you talkin about?
I was doubtin its performance because the mp-e has so shallow DoF by 2x and above that a cheaply-built rail may not give me the little or small amount of dosages I need for such a small DoF>

Lots of us use this Adorama "knock-off" off famous brand X:
http://www.adorama.com …fo=focus%20rail​&item_no=2
It's a good unit, and cheaper the the $500+ Novoflex.

I can see your point about the Sigma a 24EX a nice pair. You'd need the Canon 72mm Macro-Lite adaptor thread.

I sure do like that image on the RRS web site with a 20D-Canon 24EX flash mated to their 85B flash bracket. The Mercedes. The BMW of brackets, even more flexible, is the Wimberly shape shifters.

I see, and that knock-off brand so to speak itself isnt extremely reasonably priced either.

so my two alternatives are:

1)
420ex 180$
Adorama rail 160$
total= 350$

this way I have 2 aids. Focusing and lighting.

2)

mr/mt 450$/650$

Here I have a surplus in lighting because both macro-flashes can control the 580EX as a slave.

If I go with the latter solution, I may find myself wishing I had gotten the mt-24ex when I have the sigma 150. Better to buy once right, then to buy wrong twice.
But that would be a little more than I was planning on spending at the moment.

Spend more~thinkin long term / spend less~upgrade later.

I found a third alternative: (thanks to jack remindin me of the b85-B series)


3)

RRS B85-B 235$

optional:
B85-FM extra flash mount $150
420ex $180
total= $330

bracket + incrased macro lighting = $235+$330= $565

But alternative 3 will require a camera plate + lens plate (for mp-e) + clamp. I guess I could get by without the body plate, because I can buy a lens plate for the mp-e tripod collar foot and then attach it to the clasp that sits on the ball head. (which is another 55$ body plate + 55$ for mp-e plate + $120 for B2 LR II clamp = $230).
Will my Manfrotto 468RC2 ballhead support the above?

But I thought that the B85-B flash bracket did not need a tripod or collared lens to be used. According to rrs.com :

So how do I attach it to my 20d w/ bg-e2? So how would I use the flash bracket with my ef 17-40 L for example?

I see now . The RRs flash bracket connects to your lens plate or camera. You need the L-Plate for your camera to use it without a collared lens. Or simply connect it to your lens plate or tripod.