The real issue with 6D and 5Dm3

SoCalTiger wrote in post #15014576
That's why in my last post I mentioned I think they made a business mistake. IMO they made a miscalculation and will be losing sales to Nikon and furthermore possibly losing long-term market share which is counter to their goal of making money.

Ok, let's wait and see who is correct - Canon marketing or you. Somehow I have more faith in Canon.

gjl711 wrote in post #15014675
Canon is way more than a Camera company though and this could be good or could be bad depending on what your camera needs are. For instance, let's say that Canon has decided to maximize the profits in the camera division and the strategy they choose is to give up market leadership at the top end, where profit margins are low, and put all their efforts into the low end consumer cameras.

Could be. It would be similar to Gillet's approach to cheap shavers (they lose money on it), making huge profits on blades. But again, as I said before, the company business is not cameras, it is making money.

smythie wrote in post #15014726
I don't think it's shocking that Canon entered at those prices. In fact I think it is sensible business tactics as it will improve the perceived credibility of the products in that market.

What I find shocking is the prices of cinematic gear.

Yes. A $15,000 camera is entry level for video pros. In that market, such as for the television series "House," a 5d2 was an impulse purchase--their weekly coffee budget was that much.

gjl711 wrote in post #15014675
Canon is way more than a Camera company though and this could be good or could be bad depending on what your camera needs are. For instance, let's say that Canon has decided to maximize the profits in the camera division and the strategy they choose is to give up market leadership at the top end, where profit margins are low, and put all their efforts into the low end consumer cameras. Canon looks great from a profit standpoint but those seeking top end equipment aren't going to be looking to Canon to supply their needs.

Luckily I don't think Canon has chosen this path but as if others start cutting into Canon's high end sales and they fall from their #1 position, I can easily see them making such a decision.

And there are more nebulous considerations they make, as well.

For instance, back in the 80s the camera division was a financial hemorrage for Nippon Kogaku. Some pundits were predicting they'd pull out of the camera business completely. But the company saw cameras as their traditional badge of honor--the Nikon F is what made them a world-famous optical company, as good or better than the German companies. So they were determined to stay in that business for reasons of honor despite losing money.

In addition, because of the history of the Nikon F, Nikon has long considered themselves THE photojounalist's camera. In that respect, the needs of PJs has always been the guidepost for their flagship camera, and that mindset is still visible in the features they provide, such as the emphasis on the highest ISO possible.

Once upon a time, Canon Inc's headquarters was located in the north of Honshu, and it was noticable that their flagship F1 had cold-weather considerations no other camera had.

Canon has long had the edge on electronics, and their cameras have always emphasized that electronics edge. That gave them the really big boost when they abandoned the FD mount and went to the all-electronic EF mount...it was a lightyear ahead of everyone else and is still versatile enough for the future, although obsoleting all their earlier cameras and lenses was a helluva gutsy move (torqued me off for nearly a decade).

Personally I find the constant gripes about the D800 being a better specified camera than the 5D MKIII amusing. If you want a high mega pixel camera with slightly better dynamic range at low ISOs the the D800 is no doubt the better buy but the the 5D MKIII has advantages over the D800 in many areas. At the end of the day it depends upon what you want the camera to do. I think the main issue was that the 5D MKII offered the best choice for those who's only requirement was a high mega pixel DSLR in its day and came down to an affordable price that brought it into reach of many who had previously not been able to afford a full frame camera. A lot of people bought the camera for this reason and these are the people that are now complaining about the 5D MK III. Personally I was reluctant to pay the price of the MK III but having spent a lot of time reading reviews and comments on the MKIII and comparisons with the D800 the conclusion was that overall that the argument away from those who desire the particular strong points of the D800 the 5D MKIII is the better all around camera. Prices are dropping now but personally having owned and used the 5D MKIII for a few months it is in a different league to the MKII and well worth what I paid for it. I loved my MKII but the MKIII is a huge improvement. If you look back at the moaning about the MKII over the years Canon listened to this and responded well with the 5D MKIII, we got what the majority asked for. The D800 specs look good for a certain portion of the market but for many of us that want a competent high performance all round camera holds no appeal.

In terms of the 6D just like when the 5D MKIII was announced there is a lot of negative reaction to a camera based on perceived performance but no one has yet used this camera so can not possibly comment on relative performance in real life use. I do think Canon could have pitched both cameras slightly cheaper but in real life use I think they got the 5D MKIII right and we will have to wait a while yet to establish if the same will hold true with the 6D. Unlike many I will therefore reserve judgement until we have some real life assessments to work with.

Neil

RDKirk wrote in post #15015279
And there are more nebulous considerations they make, as well.

For instance, back in the 80s the camera division was a financial hemorrage for Nippon Kogaku. Some pundits were predicting they'd pull out of the camera business completely. But the company saw cameras as their traditional badge of honor-

And that's what I'm hoping Canon is thinking as well. Seeing all those white lenses at sporting events and such can fuel the lower tier markets. Hopefully Canon thinks this way as well and continues to put there top tier technology as it will eventually trickle down to more affordable cameras.

Lbsimon wrote in post #15015012
Ok, let's wait and see who is correct - Canon marketing or you. Somehow I have more faith in Canon.

I guess we'll see. Granted that the D600 is actually available... but... the 6D has actually dropped in those rankings a couple notches over the past couple days rather than go up. I agree the real competitive data won't be in a place where it can be analyzed for several months though.
http://www.amazon.com …ref=pd_zg_hrsr_​p_1_2_last

But that said... this FM review does give hope for Canon. If other reviews echo this sentiment, I think things will work out. I think the fate of the 6D largely rests in how the AF point perform in the "real world" and how it reviews. I'm also pretty excited about the -3EV sensitivity... that sounds pretty awesome.
http://www.fredmiranda​.com/forum/topic/11503​48

But... don't have so much faith in marketing organizations. I've worked with some at major industry-leading firms directly (former IT consultant) and you'd be surprised at the lack of actual planning or forecasting. Frequently decisions are based solely on what some executive or just a couple managers want without any prior research to back it up. I've seen brand new electronics launch and no one has any sales forecasts whatsoever even up to the launch date... Fortunately, executives tend to get it right most of the time but I've witnessed my fair share of multimillion dollar mistakes first hand.

SoCalTiger wrote in post #15015684
I guess we'll see. Granted that the D600 is actually available... but... the 6D has actually dropped in those rankings a couple notches over the past couple days rather than go up. I agree the real competitive data won't be in a place where it can be analyzed for several months though.
http://www.amazon.com …ref=pd_zg_hrsr_​p_1_2_last...

Kind of surprising that the MkIII isn't in the top 20.

SoCalTiger wrote in post #15014576
That's why in my last post I mentioned I think they made a business mistake. IMO they made a miscalculation and will be losing sales to Nikon and furthermore possibly losing long-term market share which is counter to their goal of making money.

SoCalTiger, We don't know if Canon make a mistake or not until they provide their sales number. Canon compete against Nikon for the entire DSLR market and not camera to camera. Yes they want to remain #1 for DSLR sales but I doubt they care if a few of the models were outsell by Nikon. What they really care about is Sales, Profits, and Share Market. They want to retain or increase their Share Market of the DSLR. The introduction of the new camera is likely a way to keep some Canon users from moving to Nikon by selling a FF at similar price.

The jury is still out if 6D is a mistake for Canon or not. Personally for me it's not. I'm not in the market for a 6D. I would jump to 5D3 myself but the 6D does fill the gap for some of Canon users. The camera may not be for you and it's not design to meet your need. I'm sure Canon is trying to design a camera that will meet a large number of shooter's need or want. We all want company to put in only features that is important for us at the price we think it's fair but the camera is not just for us. Remember that. Happy shooting.....

gjl711 wrote in post #15015821
Kind of surprising that the MkIII isn't in the top 20.

That list includes the 6D, which kind of makes it bogus. But I would not expect a rather expensive professional-oriented camera to be in the top 20 of a consumer market list.

SoCalTiger wrote in post #15015684
I guess we'll see. Granted that the D600 is actually available... but... the 6D has actually dropped in those rankings a couple notches over the past couple days rather than go up. I agree the real competitive data won't be in a place where it can be analyzed for several months though.
http://www.amazon.com …ref=pd_zg_hrsr_​p_1_2_last

But that said... this FM review does give hope for Canon. If other reviews echo this sentiment, I think things will work out. I think the fate of the 6D largely rests in how the AF point perform in the "real world" and how it reviews. I'm also pretty excited about the -3EV sensitivity... that sounds pretty awesome.
http://www.fredmiranda​.com/forum/topic/11503​48

But... don't have so much faith in marketing organizations. I've worked with some at major industry-leading firms directly (former IT consultant) and you'd be surprised at the lack of actual planning or forecasting. Frequently decisions are based solely on what some executive or just a couple managers want without any prior research to back it up. I've seen brand new electronics launch and no one has any sales forecasts whatsoever even up to the launch date... Fortunately, executives tend to get it right most of the time but I've witnessed my fair share of multimillion dollar mistakes first hand.

thanks for this, the -3ev seems like a total face saver for not having outer cross points

SoCalTiger wrote in post #15015684
I guess we'll see. Granted that the D600 is actually available... but... the 6D has actually dropped in those rankings a couple notches over the past couple days rather than go up. I agree the real competitive data won't be in a place where it can be analyzed for several months though.
http://www.amazon.com …ref=pd_zg_hrsr_​p_1_2_last

But that said... this FM review does give hope for Canon. If other reviews echo this sentiment, I think things will work out. I think the fate of the 6D largely rests in how the AF point perform in the "real world" and how it reviews. I'm also pretty excited about the -3EV sensitivity... that sounds pretty awesome.
http://www.fredmiranda​.com/forum/topic/11503​48

But... don't have so much faith in marketing organizations. I've worked with some at major industry-leading firms directly (former IT consultant) and you'd be surprised at the lack of actual planning or forecasting. Frequently decisions are based solely on what some executive or just a couple managers want without any prior research to back it up. I've seen brand new electronics launch and no one has any sales forecasts whatsoever even up to the launch date... Fortunately, executives tend to get it right most of the time but I've witnessed my fair share of multimillion dollar mistakes first hand.

I agree about not having faith with Marketing. But my experience with Japanese company is that they do put a lot of work and thought into products. Nothing gets release unless everyone that is involve in the process sign off from tech all the way up to managers/directors/VP, etc.... American company may function as you said, but a lot of the Japanese company will come over and talk to us and see what we need and require. What it would take to get our business. They then went back and produce the product to meet our needs and their other customer's need.

drive_75 wrote in post #15015988
I agree about not having faith with Marketing. But my experience with Japanese company is that they do put a lot of work and thought into products. Nothing gets release unless everyone that is involve in the process sign off from tech all the way up to managers/directors/VP, etc.... American company may function as you said, but a lot of the Japanese company will come over and talk to us and see what we need and require. What it would take to get our business. They then went back and produce the product to meet our needs and their other customer's need.

That's a good point, I mainly worked with American companies aside from Toyota (and I didn't work with their marketing department at all).

drive_75 wrote in post #15015988
I agree about not having faith with Marketing. But my experience with Japanese company is that they do put a lot of work and thought into products. Nothing gets release unless everyone that is involve in the process sign off from tech all the way up to managers/directors/VP, etc.... American company may function as you said, but a lot of the Japanese company will come over and talk to us and see what we need and require. What it would take to get our business. They then went back and produce the product to meet our needs and their other customer's need.

And Canon execs have themselves said that Canon is a very traditionally Japanese, consensus-seeking organization.

Erik S. Klein wrote in post #15013198
No, I'm unhappy about a couple of decisions that Canon has made recently.

Overall I'm quite happy with Canon and have the gear that I want and it's from them.

I don't like Nikon ergonomics. I don't particularly like the Nikon lens lineup.

However, when comparing the 5D3 and the 6D to the direct Nikon competition (D800, D600) Canon has clearly, to my mind, made some tactical errors with regards to either features or price. In both cases the Nikon entry, on paper at least, is superior for a better price.

My worry is that this pattern will continue and that Canon will lose a competitive edge going forward which will have an impact on my investment...

Brilliant summary of the situation.
Many of the 'objectively minded' Canon owners are unhappy for exactly the reasons stated above.
No we don't want a 5DMk III for $1000! what we want is the right features at the right price, that makes this the 'must have' Camera in the run up to Christmas.
No we are not disloyal, just business minded. We want Canon to make a shed load of cash to fund the next round of R&D; to keep our long-term investment in the Brand nice and safe. But we don't want them to make it by ripping their loyal customers off with high prices for inferior goods [In relation to the competition]. That only lasts for a short period of time till we jump ship.

e.g.
1. Why give us tethered Wi Fi in the 6D, that stuff should be reserved for the 5DMkIII. But we expect Wi Fi in todays world. So why not give a simple WiFi utility exporting the pictures automatically to an iPad or Laptop in either 'direct mode' or over a Wi Fi network.
2. Make sure the body is at least the size and weight of the 7D - oh and please don't give me that crap the top has to be plastic because of wi fi and GPS [er metal cars have that stuff] - put in an aerial [Inbuilt ring type]. Body should have had equal weatherproofing, or maybe a tad better than the 7D but not as good as the 5DIII
3. Sorry but Canon probably would have had to throw in the 5DIII's AF system, just to make it competitive, with Nikon & Sony or at least somewhere between 61 and 19 AF double cross hairs.
4. Finally just a thought, the really disloyal Canon user 'to my mind' is the ignorant 'Canon fanboy' type, who ignorantly attacks anyone who tries to steer Canon the right way, in an objective manner. All that leads to is a fear within the customer base to speak out in a contructive manner i.e. stiffling vital, contructive, intelligent, customer feedback.
Don't think big Corporations get it right every time [er anybody noticed the current global financial crisis! - we are where we are because of a few greedy, mindless idiots].
I bought my 7D as a stop gap solution until Canon responded with an attractive FF, that I could afford [the 5DMkII being a little too rich for my budget - which is fine] So I am their absolute target market - and they failed to entice me!
And that is fine, as I am appreciating the lovely build quality of my 7D more and more each day.
But if they couldn't sway someone like me, I don't think it bodes well for the future.
Conversely to all the 'fan boys' please buy as many as you like, because Canon can then use the cash to come back with something exciting with the right mix and hopefully a competitive sensor and AF system. Then I'll buy.