ANYONE ELSE THINKING

TSchrief wrote in post #15015893
some of us still choose to spend some of our time in tents.

Tent time is invaluable, seriously

tmwag wrote in post #15015939
Tent time is invaluable, seriously

I agree. And so is a range of features and IQ on cameras. If IQ were all that mattered we'd all be shooting large format film. Some people get by with a true P&S. Others require upscale S100-like P&S cameras. Some need a 1DX, others can get by with a lowly 5D3. APS-c is here to stay until someone can make a one-size-fits-all camera. And that isn't very likely.

And the reason for that would be?

The camera manufacturers know that there's a market for those who think that anything less than a 35mm sensor is somehow inferior in producing quality images. It's only one cohort. While there are truly some who prefer the larger sensor from a depth of field perspective, there are probably a hundred others for every one of those who thinks that a 35mm sensor will make them better photographers. Guess which group is the one driving 35mm entry level cameras. Another cohort consists of those who don't see any advantage to a larger sensor and are quite pleased with the results from their APS-C cameras. If that cohort dwindles away, then you'll see the end of APS-C cameras. I'm not sure it will happen any time soon. As a sample of one, I've given thought to going to a larger sensor. The bottom line is that I just don't have strong enough reasons to do so. So I'm looking for the next generation of the 7D for my next upgrade.

joedlh wrote in post #15016430
And the reason for that would be?

The camera manufacturers know that there's a market for those who think that anything less than a 35mm sensor is somehow inferior in producing quality images. It's only one cohort. While there are truly some who prefer the larger sensor from a depth of field perspective, there are probably a hundred others for every one of those who thinks that a 35mm sensor will make them better photographers. Guess which group is the one driving 35mm entry level cameras. Another cohort consists of those who don't see any advantage to a larger sensor and are quite pleased with the results from their APS-C cameras. If that cohort dwindles away, then you'll see the end of APS-C cameras. I'm not sure it will happen any time soon. As a sample of one, I've given thought to going to a larger sensor. The bottom line is that I just don't have strong enough reasons to do so. So I'm looking for the next generation of the 7D for my next upgrade.

Sounds good!

I moved from a large megaPixel P&S to the 60D last year, when I identified that the controls (or lack thereof) of the P&S limited my photogrphy. I am very happy with the 60D...

..but

I'd like to use the lower end of my 70-200...

...so the 60D may become a 6D...
or maybe I should spring for the 24-70 MkII ($$$)...

and then get a FF as well... (5DMkIV ??).

The APS-C IS here to stay! Canon is not going to make a sub $1000 FF...

look at it this way. rebels are the gateway *drug* in the dark world of photography. the market is huge, people are curious and will experiment with rebels. some, not all, will begin to crave more...and will begin casually using an xxD or xD body, knowing of course they can stop when ever they want. friends and families become concerned, bags and lenses and tripods clutter the room, but the photographer believes he has it under control. then one morning he wakes up in bed with a few 5Diii's and couple of 1d's and having no idea how they, or he got there, has a vague foggy glimpse of a rebel in the farthest reaches of his memory. so no, they will not go away...they will never go away....Canon will never allow it.

Yes, APS-C cropped sensors is here to stay. Even point n shoot cameras

jay125 wrote in post #15016747
look at it this way. rebels are the gateway *drug* in the dark world of photography. the market is huge, people are curious and will experiment with rebels. some, not all, will begin to crave more...and will begin casually using an xxD or xD body, knowing of course they can stop when ever they want. friends and families become concerned, bags and lenses and tripods clutter the room, but the photographer believes he has it under control. then one morning he wakes up in bed with a few 5Diii's and couple of 1d's and having no idea how they, or he got there, has a vague foggy glimpse of a rebel in the farthest reaches of his memory. so no, they will not go away...they will never go away....Canon will never allow it.

Started with a T1 with kid lens. A couple months later sold that for a t2i with siga 18-250....a year later bought a 5d mark ii and now have speed lite, 17-40L, 24-105, remotes blah blah blah. Still have my t2i but with a scratch on the mirror not sure if i will be using it any more since i think it messes with the auto focus. But still i started with a rebel for its price to play around with. I think they are here to stay.

From a capability standpoint, APS-C will remain as long as long glass prices remain as high as they have been.

The down side if keeping APS-C amidst the MP wars is that the more pixels they jam on that already grossly overdeveloped piece of property will require better glass, which is right where the manufacturers want us. We go all goo goo over more MP, full well knowing that a month of looking at not the greatest images due to refract/diffract problems combined with pixels in the .2micron range we will be inching (or running) towards better glass. Its a lose/lose. So we are really damned if we do and if we don't.

Only when we hold onto our bodies for years (I still have my t1i, but am getting ready to sell it along with my EFS lenses and a handful of FD glass to make it a more palatable purchase) will the tide shift in our favors a bit. But, that won't ever happen because we have programmed ourselves to begin salivating just as soon as the rumour sites start ringing the bell at the behest of the manufaturers in response to the minutest smidgen of 'advance' information.

Face it, we're screwed.....

Time will tell but APS-C may be the new standard for P&S's, FF the norm for DSLR''s. Large format may be the new standard for high end affordable consumer grade bodies. Sensors are getting larger in smaller bodies. Manufactures seem to be betting larger sensor's sell...It's all good

I'll bet good money that APS-C is not going away any time soon. However, I think it is an open question whether high-end APS-C cameras will continue to be produced. Canon now has four levels (pardon the labels, which may be off):

1. Entry. Rebels. All APS-C
2. Consumer/enthusiast: 60D, 6D. Both APS-C and now FF
3. High end enthusiast/pro: 7D, 5D. As of now, both
4. Pro. Now all FF

In my mind, the question is what will happen with #3. We'll know when Canon releases, or doesn't release, a replacement for the 7D, which is probably not going to happen for a while in any event given the recent release of the firmware upgrade.

Frankly, I think it would be a real loss if the high end APS-C cameras bit the dust. There is a huge amount of 'OMG you have to go FF if you can afford it' stuff on the web, but that is silly. The different formats have different pros and cons. In the old days, most of us stuck with 35mm SLRs and rangefinders because they had a lot of advantages. You didn't see Leica owners saying, 'OMG, I have to go buy a 120 or 620-film camera.' FF offers lower noise, shallower DOF, and somewhat more detail. APS-C offers longer reach, generally faster frame rates, deeper DOF (yes, some people want that), and more pixels on the image in macro work. If Canon could reduce the high-ISO noise in the 7D, I think I would actually prefer it for my purposes to a 5D, and even with it as it is, I prefer it to a 6D.

I'm sure that the manufacturers have been contemplating it- but only till they see how much money they make out of crop cameras- money that they would not make otherwise- and yep- that's when they stopped thinking about it. They make a fair amount of money on crop cameras, lenses for crop cameras, and various accessories- often from an initial investment into cheaper crop cameras.

OK- you can argue "buy used"- but there are a fair number of consumers that want new stuff- and would not buy used.. Besides- someone has to buy new stuff- otherwise you would run out of used stuff. Most people new to DSLR's are actually going to want to spend a certain amount of money to get something to start out with- and not spend much more than a certain amount to get there. Let's call this their "comfort zone". So, if it is in their comfort zone- they buy it.. If not- even if they have the money for it- well- they don't. fact of life as I see it. Canon is aware of it.. So is Nikon, and every other DSLR maker out there. That's why they have entry level cameras- cameras that are cheap enough for the masses to see if they really want to travel down this path- and yep- most of these cameras are crop cameras.

I'd be willing to bet that for every 5D mark ii sold, Canon sells 10 to 20 Rebels.. Most of these Rebels- priced in the - what $700 ~$1200 range- including a lens. Now, if Canon stopped selling Rebels- and it's next price offering was an entry level full frame @ $2100 and you had to fork over another $800 for a basic zoom lens and another $250 for a flash- totaling about $3200 or so- well, the number of interested parties would GREATLY drop. Ouch.. But of course, if Canon stopped producing Rebels- not only would they stop selling EF-S glass, well, some other company would pick up the slack- and Canon stock would drop like a rock. Nope- cheaper cameras are their method of attracting customers that might buy additional lenses and accessories- money that Canon is eager to take.

One other question: How long does it take a manufacturer to recoup developing new lenses ? When Canon decides to drop APS-C- they will stop developing APS-C cameras- and lenses for them.. Didn't they release some new APS-C lenses recently ? Stop dreaming- APS-C will be around for a while.

paddler4 wrote in post #15020838
I'll bet good money that APS-C is not going away any time soon. However, I think it is an open question whether high-end APS-C cameras will continue to be produced. Canon now has four levels (pardon the labels, which may be off):

1. Entry. Rebels. All APS-C
2. Consumer/enthusiast: 60D, 6D. Both APS-C and now FF
3. High end enthusiast/pro: 7D, 5D. As of now, both
4. Pro. Now all FF

....//....

Good points, though I doubt the pros using 1D3s and 1D4s would like you saying that all pros use FF....'cos last time I checked, these are 1.3x "crop" cameras!

But anyway, all this talk about FF goodness and crop badness completely ignores the 1D3~4 line of "cropped sensor" cameras, so please stop, go and shoot something, and post some exciting, imaginative and inspiring photos!

Regards,
Simon
[Who uses 2 7D bodies, and likes keeping the profits in his bank account, and not giving it to Canon!]

umphotography wrote in post #15013502
That the crop sensor is on borrowed time ?? Im thinking its going to go away pretty quick.

No.

A FF sensor is still close to 10 times more expensive to manufacture than a crop. Sensor costs are not coming down much as they dont benefit from the same reductions cpu's do.

No, it's not on borrowed time.

RobDickinson wrote in post #15021222
No.

A FF sensor is still close to 10 times more expensive to manufacture than a crop.

Source for supposed 10x figure? It's more expensive, but 10x?