7D II

RTPVid wrote in post #15561586
Curiously, I found this in my dictionary...

HYPERBOLE
: extravagant exaggeration (as “the last decade has been a horrific experience for photography with horribly small sensors”)

Is this wormhole technology I am ignorant of?

Jahled wrote in post #15561562
Putting the APS-C to bed would would be progress, the last decade has been a horrific experience for photography with horribly small sensors.

Oh really?

If all the camera manufacturers drop their crop dSLRs then it'll be a disaster for a lot of people. They'll have to upgrade to medium format to retain their supercillious superiority over the masses.

Jahled wrote in post #15561562
Putting the APS-C to bed would would be progress, the last decade has been a horrific experience for photography with horribly small sensors. A last growl of an APS-H would perhaps be a justified wail into the world, and where better than the 7D series. Canon were merciless, but somewhat practical in 1987. Why not again

That would be absurd. Those of you who shoot everything where you always have enough focal length and never need to crop have a huge blind spot to the needs of others. Not only does Canon need to maintain APS-c, but they need to make cameras with even smaller sensors. IMO, APS-c is too big for shooting small birds. TCs help, but they are not perfect. A 2x TC is not as good as a 2x crop factor with ample pixels for the image. The TC causes some contrast loss, no matter how good it is, and introduces haloing and ruins bokeh. The TC puts the minimum f-stop in a range where AF won't work or is slower or less reliable. Cropping loses subject detail. We need smaller-format EOS bodies, with at least 18 to 24MP.

The "horror" of the 7D is that it has line noises, and it has mismatched spectral responses in the odd and even lines of green photosites. Neither of these have anything to do with the size of the pixels, or the size of the sensor; they are just pure carelessness on Canon's part. There are much, much smaller sensors without these ills.

The 18MP sensor is already milking lenses for most of their details beyond what they can deliver.

Once we start getting higher MP full frame cameras that can run in a crop mode, like the D800, then the pixels on target argument just goes to sleep with the fishes. Given lens limitations, the D800 pulls all the detail you would want in crop mode already.

There is still a market for smaller cameras and lenses, yes, but I think the market needs to mature and start pushing cheaper and better FF cameras and start phasing out the stop-gap APS-C. If cheap FF digital cameras were available at the start of DSLRs many people would have never tried crop cameras to begin with. We were doing just fine with Full Frame film Rebel cameras, and many other FF compact cameras for the amateur market. APS-C film cameras never took off because people still had the choice of FF film cameras that were dirty cheap and compact.

hollis_f wrote in post #15567035
If all the camera manufacturers drop their crop dSLRs then it'll be a disaster for a lot of people. They'll have to upgrade to medium format to retain their supercillious superiority over the masses.

You come across as an incredibly bitter person, which I hope isn't the case in reality.

I agree that when the day comes that FF has enough resolution/pixel density that far surpasses that of the 7D, for example, let's say 60MP and above, at an affordable price, and buffering and memory card writes can keep up with such cameras (which they undoubtedly will, in time), then yes, we can put APS-C "to bed".

But we are not there yet; at the current time, a 24MP APS-C sensor with good ISO performance in a capable body such as the 7D is most welcome.

i have no interest in only having a full frame camera...

howiewu wrote in post #15567269
I agree that when the day comes that FF has enough resolution/pixel density that far surpasses that of the 7D, for example, let's say 60MP and above, at an affordable price, and buffering and memory card writes can keep up with such cameras (which they undoubtedly will, in time), then yes, we can put APS-C "to bed".

But we are not there yet; at the current time, a 24MP APS-C sensor with good ISO performance in a capable body such as the 7D is most welcome.

I don't think it needs to go that far.

Canon shooters do not know what 24mp feels like on crop. I have read many skilled opinions from Nikon shooters who use both 16 and 24 mp crop machines. They agree that the 16mp sensor is better and the added mp of 24 can't be supported fully by lenses and the increase in noise negated any cropping or printing power. 24 mp is a number that sells cameras because "bigger is better"

There are vast advantages to having a fast FF camera with 36mp.

First, people have to shoot with FF L lenses anyways for telephoto work on the 7d. There is no reduction in weight to the crop sensor of the 7d or size. It's big and heavy to use.

If you are projecting a FF image circle, why not have a larger buffer room on the edges to prevent clipped wings of BIF? Crop later for the composition you want and no missing body parts. Or like in that case of the d800 just run in slight crop mode 1.2x for faster framerate and still more coverage.

Getting a great photo that pops, relies greatly and the clarity and microcontrast of the lens. Adding more mp to a small area only diminishes the apparent microcontrast. I think even the 18 mp sensor is pushing that limited more than needed.
What we need is better noise control and dynamic range, not more mp.

Canon_Lover wrote in post #15567673
They agree that the 16mp sensor is better and the added mp of 24 can't be supported fully by lenses and the increase in noise negated any cropping or printing power.

True. But look back into the dawn of time and you'll find exactly the same things being said about 12 MP vs 8 MP. Plus ça change...

hollis_f wrote in post #15567748
True. But look back into the dawn of time and you'll find exactly the same things being said about 12 MP vs 8 MP. Plus ça change...

Who in their right mind needs more than 6MP?!! (circa 2002).

Now who needs more than 6MP again?

You guys are misstating the fact to prove a false argument.

True, people say that crap without first trying it. What you guys are pointing out is behavioral attributes to people who make claims about something that has never been tested.

Once we went from 8MP to 15MP and got a lot of user experience, it was proven to be of benefit.

24 MP sensors have been in crop cameras for long enough to be proven after the fact at this point. Many people are finding the true limits of current and possibly future technology.

Stop trying to create a falsely based argument off something that is not relevant to the current situation. 24 MP has already proven to not yield the gains people had hoped beyond 16MP.

Canon_Lover wrote in post #15567918
You guys are misstating the fact to prove a false argument.

True, people say that crap without first trying it. What you guys are pointing out is behavioral attributes to people who make claims about something that has never been tested.

Once we went from 8MP to 15MP and got a lot of user experience, it was proven to be of benefit.

24 MP sensors have been in crop cameras for long enough to be proven after the fact at this point. Many people are finding the true limits of current and possibly future technology.

Stop trying to create a falsely based argument off something that is not relevant to the current situation. 24 MP has already proven to not yield the gains people had hoped beyond 16MP.

I don't know how you can say it is proven already. There has not even been a 24MP APS-C CMOS sensor in a Canon body.

Canon_Lover wrote in post #15567918
You guys are misstating the fact to prove a false argument.

True, people say that crap without first trying it. What you guys are pointing out is behavioral attributes to people who make claims about something that has never been tested.

Once we went from 8MP to 15MP and got a lot of user experience, it was proven to be of benefit.

24 MP sensors have been in crop cameras for long enough to be proven after the fact at this point. Many people are finding the true limits of current and possibly future technology.

Stop trying to create a falsely based argument off something that is not relevant to the current situation. 24 MP has already proven to not yield the gains people had hoped beyond 16MP.

i can't think of one canon 24mp crop camera...