D30 Section

Pekka,
I can hear crickets chirping in the D30 section it's so empty. What can we do to get some of the heavyweights over to start discussing their cameras?
I am really anxious to mingle with some of the D30 users and talk shop.

_____
Curby

Curby,

I'll be happy to try and answer any questions you have about the D30. I purchased the D30 after returning the G1 as I found its rangefinder format was not to my liking, since I've been shooting with 35mm SLRs for so long. The D30 was a natural choice as I already owned many Canon lenses and accessories. I am fortunate that an "affordable" digital SLR came along just about the time I was looking to upgrade from my first digital camera, an Olympus D600L, which was an excellent digicam when introduced at $1,400. I gave it to an employee for use on construction sites.

But ... I really miss the G1 for its portability, the flip out LCD (for many reasons) and its excellent image quality. I plan to buy another one as the price comes down, just too nice to ignore. I also tried the Oly E-10 while I had the G1, but returned it due to excessive noise, and the G1 produced more "film-like" images, IMO.

I also have a Canon S10 digicam, but have never taken it out of the box, the D30 is too addictive. And ... I also own two Canon 35mm bodies and an extensive Mamiya RB Pro S medium format system, all of which have been collecting dust in their bags for about 5 months, not that I plan on selling any of them.

Thom

Thom,

Yep, one real issue for me too in D30 is lack of tilted LCD and realtime LCD view.

- I wear glasses, and it is too annoying to put them on and off all the time when you shoot.

- How do you shoot from waist level or lower with a viewfinder? Crawl?

I heard there are add ons for viewfinders, which would tilt and let you see it from top. Do you know anything about those? Are there any good viewfinder magnifiers?

Another thing: you say you miss G1's excellent image quality after having D30. Can you give any more info - do you feel D30 is too soft?

I don't (yet) but that is a good point. Many SLRs do have high eye point viewfinders that make them useable for eyeglass wearers, not sure about the D30m have to check the manual. It, as well as most of the Canon SLRs, has an adjustable diopter viewfinder that may suit you, but then you're back to taking glasses on and off.

uh, sometimes I do crawl but basically I just kneel or stoop, just something I'm used to with 35mm slr. The LCD is a great feature and the one I miss the most. If the D30 had one, it could well be the "perfect camera" ... almost.

Canon makes a right angle finder that clips on, but I have never been compelled to buy one ... still have to get down to its level and look in, an LCD it is not. However, it does have 2x magnification (when needed)and would be very helpful, which is now more apparent since I am without the LCD of the G1. When I really needed this (in my pre-digital life), I would switch to my Mamiya, which has a waist level finder, but not always practical to carry just for this purpose ... I usually was intending to shoot ground level (Mayapple flowers, etc.) when I left home and took it along. The G1 LCD eliminated this concern and, if Canon is listening, it could have been used on the D30 !!! This would have required a beam splitter, but still, for a price, it could have been done.

Maybe I need to clarify that statement, I miss the portability and some of the very nice LCD features of the G1, and since it does have excellent image quality it would be a good tool to have at my disposal, but I would not say I have suffered a set-back in image quality.

Actual handling in most situations? Personally, I prefer the feel and ergonomics of a full sized SLR with interchangeable lenses that renders an ultimate image quality, in prints, that exceeds all "reasonable" expectations compared to scanned 35mm film. However, neither camera will produce images that rival an Imacon scanned medium format transparency.

The two cameras have different goals, IMO. Consider the average consumer print film and paper that processors use. These films and papers are high contrast and high color saturation biased, as most consumers like the saturation impact and perceived increase in sharpness of the high contrast. I think the G1 caters more to this type of shooter than the D30 and may have higher sharpness, contrast and saturation defaults than the D30. This may also be due to the CCD vs CMOS imager. That said, and while I have not tried to, I don't think that setting the D30 sharpness to "High" would produce as sharp an image as the G1, either post Zoombrowser or straight out of camera.

I think the D30 CMOS imager has inherent limitations in sharpness, but also advantages. I find the D30 image smoother in texture, especially in large expanses of continuous tone, blue sky for example. This may be because Canon reduced noise by softening the image somewhat. My G1 did not have as smooth and noise free texture in blue sky as the D30, with the G1 displaying some mild magenta noise in some images. The arguement also stands that Canon preferred to allow more user input in creating the final image in post processing. So, to answer the question, ultimately no, I don't think the D30 is too soft, but it does take more post processing work to produce as sharp an image as the G1. Of course, either is eventually going to suffer from oversharpening and which one will be the sharpest before that happens I can't say.

One last point, my G1 had some off-color issues right out of camera, mostly with greens, but were easily tweaked in photoshop. Some D30 shooters have issues with too much cyan bias, but I have not found that to be much of a problem.

In the right hands, the G1 image quality should be able to satisfy anyone comparing them to the D30. Reconciling the differences/compromise​s in handling, interchangeable lenses and other accessories is what made my decision, not image quality. Cost is another issue altogether.

Hi, Thom !

Thank you for excellent small review of D30. You noticed that you had E-10 sometime along with G1. Could you give a small comprarision between E-10 and G1 like you did for D30.

Pekka,
Thanks for moving my post into the D30 section. I soon noticed it became the correct location for it.

Thom,
I own a Canon EOS Élan IIe along with my G1. I have many quality lenses for My Élan IIe and have been waiting for the right moment to by a Digital SLR (preferably a Canon because of my existing lenses) which range 20mm 2.8 to a sigma 170mm to 500mm 4.5 APO that I use with a 1.4X tele extender. I was budgeted to buy a D30, but changed my mind when I began to see Pekka's work with his G1. I have not been sorry I bought the G1 what so ever. I am very happy with it and its similarity to my EOS system. However, I am hands down an old SLR user that requires all of the other nuances that go along with that type of camera. I am now at a point where I have been trying to decide to by the D30 again or wait for a newer version. Either way I will buy one, but I just do not know when. Deep down I know I should be USING a Digital SLR, but I love the results I have been getting from my G1. Ah, such a rough decision. It's not so much the handling & functionality of the D30 that I would need to know as much as Image quality and longevity of the current CMOS image device. I am not usually the type to wait for something newer to come out before I buy it, but in this case I have mixed emotions. That's really it I am just prepping myself for something I know I should be using. My G1 will be at my side until its very last image is taken, but I see an SLR looming in the horizon.

Thanks for any further input you or others may have.
______
Curby

Hi Andrei ... hmmm ... this may be off topic for the D30 forum, but I'll leave it to Pekka to move as he sees fit.

A "few" details before I send you to check some sample images on my website.

The E-10 handled very well and had a good solid build quality, (heavy, it's not a pocketable camera like the G1). It is a true SLR with mirror and thru the lens viewing, unlike some digicams that appear to be an SLR but have a videocam type finder. The LCD is full time, like the G1, as Oly used a beam splitter to feed data to the LCD.

http://www.theinnerima​ge.com/E10/E10_bimmerm​adness.htm

The viewfinder has adj. diopter and a switch activated shutter to prevent ambient light from effecting the metering system when you may want to remove your eye from the camera, say when shooting on a tripod.
The LCD pulls away from the body, but is held to one axis, tipping down a few degrees and up 90 degrees, but does not flip around or swivel, much more limited than the G1, no comparison really, but it is better than having no full time LCD.
What can I say, the rangefinder on the G1 sucks compared to a SLR, but it's flip and swivel LCD make up for that.
The E10 lens is fixed, not interchangeable and differs from the G1 in that its macro mode works at the longest focal length, while the G1s closest focus is at its widest angle of view.
The OLY RAW files are much larger and fixed at 7.437 MB and the write to media time is very long, the G1 files are much smaller and seem to vary somewhat with the level of detail, ISO, etc. but are around 2.2-2.5 MB as you are all probably aware, so storage is less an issue with the G1. The E10 does take CF or Smartmedia, in fact both at once, allowing you to record on either and also transfer from one to the other, but IBM Microdrive is not officially supported.
The OLY RAW files are not even detected, much less display any info in the EXIF software, I'm not sure about Thumbsplus.
The Oly does provide for saving in camera as .tif file, although these run about 11MB and take forever to write.
I did like the fact that the E10 used a leaf shutter so it flash synched up to it's max shutter speed of 1/640, it also has a PC contact for external flashes or studio strobes, the G1 does not.

http://www.theinnerima​ge.com …studio_strobe_s​amples.htm

The manual zoom made the camera feel like a real SLR, as opposed to the electric zoom of the G1 and other similar designs. The manual focus ring was actually an electronic control of the autofocus motor, kind of weird, but the steps were close together, not too bad, but not a real manual focus. The G1 button driven manual focus is somewhat awkward.
As you'll see in my samples, the two cameras handled several different shots, each in their own consistent manner, with the Oly tending to expose more for highlight preservation and the G1 more for shadow detail. These differences are easily resolved with exposure compensation, which I did not attempt at the time. These were shot with the intention of comparing the cameras as their metering systems interpreted the shot. If I had wanted to, I could have taken the time to check exposure accuracy and compensate as necessary to arrive at the same densities, but I chose not too. I was not trying to achieve ultimate images from either camera at the time, witness these are snapshots of a shopping center, but the light was nice, close to sunset, so I hopped out of the car and fired away.
I did find that the E10 handled color better in these shots than the G1, witness the greenish wood trash receptacle in the G1 shot, but again, easily tweaked in PS. Custom WB may have made a difference, but again, was beyond the scope of my fast track "testing."

However, in the final analysis, the E-10 images contained too much noise and an identifiable digital appearance, IMO, on the monitor and in prints. This is somewhat subjective, as many find the noise tends to be minimized in prints, and it was, but not enough for my taste. More importantly, the G1 prints looked like film, the E10 just looked "digital" to me. I hold the dubious honor of being the first to bring up the noise issue on usenet and Oly's Camedia forum and found the resulting debates "interesting." Some were in complete denial, some in complete agreement and some agreed there was too much noise but they could live with it and hoped for a firmware upgrade. To each his own, there is no arguing with taste.

The images on the following page are full frame, no crops except where noted, were shot in RAW format @ f/4.0, Aperture priority mode, AWB and handheld, the G1 was set to it's lowest ISO of 50 and the E10's lowest was ISO 80 ... so shutter speeds varied by that fact alone, as well as additional meter system "anomalies." Focal length and framing were as close to the same as possible without a tripod in use.

I can make the original RAW files for either camera available for download, but you'll need Oly Camedia software to decode the .orf files of the E10. I can supply converted .tif files as well.

http://www.theinnerima​ge.com/E10/e10-g1samples.htm

To keep this in the light of the D-30, the limiting factors of shutter speed and aperture range, as well as not having interchangeable lenses limit ones abililty to get the most from the E-10 or G1 systems. I'm stating the obvious here, but only a full SLR system with access to "L" quality glass will provide the flexibility one needs to shoot under the widest range of conditions and creative inspiration, albeit at a cost. And even then, the D30 has a crippled autofocus system compared to even the least expensive Canon SLR film bodies, why? It's a mystery to all D30 owners that have used Canon's EOS film bodies. I owned the first EOS, the 650, and I almost think even it was better. It takes some getting used to after shooting the A2 as my main 35mm body for almost 8 years.

Sorry for the long winded dissertation, but trying to be complete and fair to all three cameras.

whew, that looked a lot shorter in Notepad ...

Curby,

You are a prime candidate, as was I, for a D30. I debated the imager size issue, really wanting to keep my 20mm capability and figuring I would wait for the 6MP "pro." But for how long would I wait? Michael Reichmann's page on the D30 vs film convinced me.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/d30_vs_f​ilm.htm

After my "disappoinments" with the E10 and the G1, I went for the D30. Now I still want for a G1! It's like camera bags and tripods, none are perfect for all occasions.

Hi, Thom !

Thank you very much for this comparison. I think Pekka will forgive us for E-10 reference. At least now I see the ghost of D30 on my way. Though couple days ago I was dreaming about E-10

You're welcome, Andrei ... the E-10 is an attractive piece of equipment, but I believe that by the time they fix it's noise problem, or more likely introduce a newer model, Canon will have introduced something better still. The D30 for now is the best way to go, IMHO, but again, at almost twice the cost when including a standard zoom lens. The thing is, Canon's EOS system is there to grow into, with every possible lens and accessory one may need. And the EX Speedlites work on your G1!

Nikon is another alternative for some people, and I have never handled a D1, and from what I read D1 has the better build quality and autofocus, but the D30 a superior image.

No Bugster wrote in post #4025761
Wow! I saw this and laughed...it is the oldest thread listed on this forum, and I feel priveleged to respond to it with FINALLY, 6.5 years later a Liveview exists (or in the olden terms...'realtime LCD view")LOL.

I guess they still have some work to do on the tilting screen part, Pekka!

Olympus figured it out! I'd like to see the next Rebel upgrade offer a 2.5" tilting G6-powershot style LCD with live view - for that, I might sell my 30D and make a Rebel my 40D backup.

I'd love to see a tilting LiveView on a 5D...I'd buy it in second! I'm in a wheelchair and a tilting screen would do wonders for my landscape shots!