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Thread started 30 Oct 2012 (Tuesday) 05:55
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Need help - Lens selection for going FF

 
ssmanak
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Oct 30, 2012 05:55 |  #1

I have been thinking of upgrading my 500D with a new generation camera with better low light (high ISO) specs. I am an enthusiast and normally photograph landscapes, environment portraits and people (indoor & outdoor). Going through discussion on this forum on 6D, it is clear that this camera is targeted *for my kind of photography. So I am eagerly awaiting its launch and detailed reviews.

My current two lenses:
1. 12-24 – my landscape / outdoor lens. Very good lens with serious issue of sun flare. It has to be sold.
2. 24-70 – My people photo lens. Excellent lens. Cons - It is big and attracts un-necessary stares (weight no issue – in fact feels good /solid)

I am looking at following options for going full frame.
1. Option 1 – Two lenses 24-70 & 100mm. 24-70 replaces my current UWA (12-24) role and it will also be good for environmental portraits. I will sell 12-24 and buy one of 100mm primes for people & portraits. This option sounds good. I have already tried using my 12-24 in 15mm + focal range during a day out to see if I will miss too much 12-14 mm focal range. Yes I can live with 15mm + focal range on current camera (thereby meaning 24mm+ focal range on FF)
2. Option 2 – Suddenly I have urge to go with primes (I have read a lot on prime Vs zoom debate and fully understand pros & cons). I will sell both my current lenses and buy – EF 28 F1.8, EF 50 F1.4 and EF 100 F2.8. Money is key constraint so no L range lens.

My questions on option 2:
Q1. EF 28 mm F 1.8 – Since it replaces 12-24, is it better or comparable to 12-24 at F4 to F11 (better in sharpness, contrast & colour. All other specs can be traded)
Q2. EF 50 mm F1.4 – Is it better or comparable to 24-70 at F2.8 to F5.6
Q3. Is there a 24 mm lens option available instead of 28mm. For this lens F2.8 max aperture will suffice.

Thanks in anticipation


ss.manak
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drzenitram
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Oct 30, 2012 06:16 |  #2

How often do you use the wide end of your 12-24?


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ssmanak
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Oct 30, 2012 06:24 |  #3

drzenitram wrote in post #15185757 (external link)
How often do you use the wide end of your 12-24?

I agree with you. Even with 24-70 i will be missing wide end of 12-24. Going for 17-40 doesnt fit in my current scheme of things.


ss.manak
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Oct 30, 2012 06:31 |  #4

drzenitram wrote in post #15185757 (external link)
How often do you use the wide end of your 12-24?

Consider that 15mm on your 12-24 will equal 24mm on Full Frame.


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drzenitram
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Oct 30, 2012 06:37 |  #5

If you like the 24-70, I'd stick with it. 24mm primes are either very expensive or under performing. If you keep the 24-70 I'd go with a 100 f2 over the 100 f2.8. The 2.8 macro is decent for portraits, but that extra stop gives you a lot of extra room for artistic expression using shallow DOF. However, if you're wanting to do macro the 2.8 will be decent for portraits.


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Eyal
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Oct 30, 2012 06:39 |  #6

Going to primes is very different.
It force you to be more creative by losing the comfort of choosing how to compose from the same angle with a zoom.

Going to primes, I suggest you set your 12-24 to 15 (24)or 18(28), and your 24-70 to 31(50) or so (relative to the FF length), and walk around with them without touching the zoom ring, and see if you can make it work. People have a lot of different styles, and only primes is not for everyone.

Regarding the 50 1.4 vs the 24-70, they will be pretty much the same at F/2.8, maybe the 50 will be a bit sharper at the center.

There is a 24mm prime. the F/1.4 L II.
If you are willing to go without AF and manual apture, the samyang 24 F/1.4 is a good option. Its a very good piece of glass.
There is the sigma 20mm, but its not a very good lens, especially on a 6D.


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Mike
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Oct 30, 2012 06:42 |  #7

I'd have a think about the Canon 85mm f/1.8 instead of a 100mm prime, it is awesome for portraits on full frame.
And then keep the 24-70. :)


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ssmanak
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Oct 30, 2012 06:44 |  #8

I can cosider option 3: EF 17-40, EF 50 f1.4, EF 100 f2.8. My only issue with this option is F4 & cost of uwa vs 28mm.


ss.manak
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JustinPoe
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Oct 30, 2012 08:46 |  #9

ssmanak wrote in post #15185819 (external link)
I can cosider option 3: EF 17-40, EF 50 f1.4, EF 100 f2.8. My only issue with this option is F4 & cost of uwa vs 28mm.

How often did you shoot at 12mm on your crop? I think you'll miss it... I use 24mm quite a bit on my 24-105, but it certainly doesn't replace my 17-40. I guess it depends on what you want to shoot and your style. For landscapes, ultra-wide is really fun and often necessary.

I have a somewhat random suggestion. Look at the Rokinon/Samyang 14mm f/2.8. It's relatively inexpensive and sharp. I think it would make an awesome landscape lens and fulfill your ultra-wide needs. I'll be picking one up shortly.


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saintz
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Oct 30, 2012 09:11 |  #10

You could do something like a 28-135 or 28-105 for landscape shots. Cheap and works just fine when stopped down.

Then I would look at a 85 1.8 or 100 f2 for portraits. Probably lean towards the 85 as it will be more useful indoors.

You could also consider something like the Rokinon 14mm for wide. It's manual, but for landscape, that is probably fine.

For landscape use, where the camera is generally on a tripod, stopped down, and plenty of light, the difference between a cheap zoom (28-105 $100), expensive zoom (24-70 $1,500), and prime (28 1.8 $400) is going to be pretty small. In fact, most lenses stopped down like that will do fine. For wide, a cheap zoom is actually probably more practical and cheaper than a prime.


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ssmanak
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Oct 30, 2012 10:02 |  #11

Few suggestions above are interesting. My comments:

1. EF 100 F2 over 100 F2.8 - (DRZENITRAM) I do not care about macro, but I like 10" minimum focus distance of 24-70. On crop sensor camera it gives me opportunities to photograph flowers (I sketch them later). Moving to FF, 24-70 may be too wide for this role. If 100 F2 can do it, I will love to shift to that over 2.8.

2. 100 mm Vs 85 mm: (Mike) In case I keep 24-70, then 70mm & 85 mm are too close FL. I also read some where that 85f1.8 & 100f2 are very close in optical performance. I agree to SAINTZ that 85 will be more usefull indoor as I had 50mm on crop earlier. This is the reason I have 50mm & 100 mm in my wish list (50mm will take care general indoor & outdoor activity and 100 mm for those specific needs)- This will mean selling 24-70 & going for either 17-40 or 28mm for wide needs

3. Manual UWA or wide lenses: ( Rokinon or Samyang) For UWAs, I find auto focus not that important. Many times I try and put my 12-24 at hyperfocal distance. However automatic aperture would be required to use aperture priority mode outdoors.

4. Interesting to note that there is no support for 28mm for wide angle use

I am getting good inputs. Let them keep coming.


ss.manak
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amfoto1
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Oct 30, 2012 10:34 |  #12

Hi,

First things first... all ultrawide lenses can have issues with flare. It's just the nature of a wide lens, especially shooting scenics, that you'll be more likely to have the sun or another bright, specular highlight in the image... and end up with some flare. The Tokina 12-24 actually is one of the better ultra wide angle lenses handling flare. In my opinion, among lenses in this class only the Canon 10-22 is better. The Canon is unusually flare resistant... the Toki 12-24 is merely "very good". Many other lenses are a lot worse than those two.

Below image was a deliberate test of the Tokina 12-24... a worst-case effort to cause as much flare as I could. I even added a circular polarizer (any filter is a no no, shooting into the sun... a polarizer has two layers of glass, so is twice as likely to cause problems... it was a quality, B+W Kaesemann or MRC filter, though).

IMAGE: http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6042/6336978529_77fc4f5710_b.jpg


Yes, there was flare...

IMAGE: http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6105/6337729810_2cd76429e0_o.jpg

It was pretty easily retouched out in Photoshop.

Here's another flare test example, this time with 24-70 like yours, on 5D Mark II (lens at 30mm, f5.6, no filter)....

IMAGE NOT FOUND
HTTP response: NOT FOUND | MIME changed to 'image/gif' | Redirected to error image by FLICKR
IMAGE NOT FOUND
HTTP response: NOT FOUND | MIME changed to 'image/gif' | Redirected to error image by FLICKR


The difference between these two images? I moved a little. Nothing else.

My point is that flare is always a possibilty working with challenging lighting, and often is even more likely with a wide lens. The Toki 12-24 is better than most dealing with it. The Canon 10-22 is even better. The Toki 11-16 is a lot more susceptible to flare (part of the price you pay to get f2.8 with an UWA lens). The Sigma 10-20 and a Tamron UWA I tested some years ago really struggled dealing with flare, too. (The Siggy lens has been revised since, and there are now two versions of it... which might be better... I haven't tested them).

As to your lens choices...

1. Keep your 24-70. It's a great lens... Only the new Mark II might be better. Actually the 24-70 is a better portrait zoom on a crop camera, than on a full frame camera. So you are correct that you will likely need a longer lens, too. It really isn't all that big or noticeable... I bet you're just being self-concious when using it.

2. Regarding a wider angle lens...

One thing that might interest you... The Tokina 12-24 actually can be used on full frame. I've tested it on my 5DII and it works just fine up to about 18 or 19mm wide before it starts to vignette. I don't normally use it becuase it shows some more wide angle distortion than the prime lens I usually use, and it tends to have some chromatic aberration in the corners and at the edges on FF... but it works and I wouldn't hesitate to use it in some emergency situation.

Instead I recommend a rather simple solution... Canon EF 20mm f2.8. It's an excellent lens. I actually like it on either crop or full frame. It's currently my widest on full frame. A couple sample shots made with the 20mm on FF...

IMAGE: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5004/5344128721_43dde2fdd5_b.jpg
IMAGE: http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2401/5734569759_1e1cfd7c90_b.jpg

I am considering adding the Rokinon 14mm (the same lens sells as Samyang, Vivitar, Bower, ProOptic and others). Such a wide lens is something I'd only occasionally use, so I wouldn't want to tie up a lot of money in a 14mm (such as the Canon). The Rokinon 14mm is both manual focus and manual aperture. Not too big a deal, it's just slower to use than an AF and electronic aperture lens. If I add a 14mm, it will be in addition to the 20mm, which is my go-to lens for wider than 24mm.

Note: With this and other manual aperture lenses, you can use Av with the Rokinon. Set the aperture on the lens and the camera will meter and adjust the shutter speed as needed. You can use M and stop down manual metering, or set things up with a separate meter. You can't use Tv or P.

Some day I'd like to have the TS-E 17mm, too.... That would be for architecture, though, primarily. I have to line up a paying job or two to justify such an expensive lens, though! I have 24mm and 45m TS-E lenses.

I haven't compared with the 17-40. A lot of people like that lens and a zoom is convenient. But I already had the 20/2.8 and at one time had the 17-35/2.8L (predecessor to the current 16-35... ) but sold it to buy the Toki 12-24 when I was using only crop sensor cameras. I hung onto the 20mm because that prime lens was sharper edge to edge and has less CA than the zoom did. I just can't compare it with the 17-40, not having used it.

I have and use the Canon 28/1.8, too. I particularly like it on a crop camera... it's just not a focal length I use a lot on full frame. What I like about this prime is that it's small... very compact. It's a great lens for street shooting, for example. It's one of the smallest of the USM lenses.

There are two 24mm f2.8 Canons. One is the original EF lens... It's fine optically, but lacks USM and is a little lower build quality than the 28/1.8. The other is the new, very pricey 24/2.8 IS STM (also the 28/2.8 IS STM). I haven't tried either of these new lenses... I just don't need IS on a wide angle... especially not at nearly double the cost and with a slower aperture (in the case of the 28mm). There are also Sigma 28/1.8, 24/1.8 and 20/1.8 lenses. These are older designs and don't have HSM (Sigma's equiv. to Canon's USM). They are also pretty large and heavy. I was never interested in them, so haven't used them. Of course, there also is the Canon 24/1.4L... great lens, but pretty big and pricey, if the extra two stops of light aren't essential to you. Finally, there is the Canon 24mm TS-E. I use one of those (Mark I version), but it's not a lens I'd generally recommend. It's great for architectural photography primarily. It's also an f3.5 aperture lens. Big, heavy and strictly manual focus too. But I find the tilt shift very handy for some things (I also use the 45mm TS-E).

At or around 24mm, I really don't see much to be gained selling off your 24-70 in favor of some prime. Granted, some of those primes are smaller, but the 24-70 pretty much matches them for image quality and already gives you the f2.8 aperture. And the 24-70 is so much more versatile. You'll miss everything from 25mm to 70mm if you for-go the zoom for one of these primes!

50/1.4 is a good lens... I love it on my crop cameras where it's a short portrait tele. On full frame, 50mm focal length bores me and I rarely use it. Not that it's a bad lens and you might like the focal length on FF. It's a wee bit soft wide open... sharpens very nicely by f2.2 and is solid from there on out to its smallest apertures. Still, there's not a lot to be gained over your 24-70 at 50mm.

If you get serious about any of these primes, you can test yourself, to see if you like and would use the focal length, with your zoom. Tape the zoom ring in the particular focal length you're considering, then shoot with it that way for a couple days. See how much you miss the zoom, if you miss it.

3. Regarding a short telephoto...

If it were me, I'd get the 135/2 instead of the 100mm you're considering. The reason is that 100mm is pretty close to the 70mm you've already got. But, I do use an 85mm some of the time, too (and have a 100mm macro lens, which I don't like using for portratiture and I noted macro doesn't interest you).

Incidentally, the 135/2 works very well with Canon's 1.4X teleconverters. That's an easy way to get some extra reach, if it's needed occasionally.

But really, the 100/2 is a fine choice, too... right in between 85mm and 135mm. It can be used with third party teleconverters, I'm sure (don't know what the IQ would be like). It can't be used with the Canon TCs.

Any of these short tele lenses would be great for portraiture and would complement your 24-70 very nicely.


So, if you want to keep it simple, a three lens kit of 20mm, 24-70 and 135/2 is a pretty good way to go. In fact, I'm packing for a trip right now and those three lenses - along with a 5DII, 1.4X TC, 300mm lens, 580EX II and a few other things - are what's going into my backpack.

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artyH
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Oct 30, 2012 10:41 |  #13

The 28 f1.8 is pretty wide on full frame and may not be as sharp as your 24-70, at least in the corners.
I would be looking at the 17-40, but an option might be to pick up a 50f1.4, since 24 is pretty wide on full frame. The 50 will get more use than the 85.
I don't want one on a crop (I have the 35f2), but the new 40f2.8 would be useful on full frame.




  
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kf095
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Oct 30, 2012 11:05 |  #14

Why sell very good L zoom like 24-70L to get three average primes.
6D is weather sealed and so L zoom is. Huge benefit.
Get small, cheap MF like OM 50 1.4 or 50mm FSU. For situations then you wish to be less noticeable. Those lenses are very small but not cheap in terms of IQ.
And keep saving for 100L.
I added FF camera to my 500D some time ago, looking at 6D as ideal FF for me also.
I went through some non_L IQ zooms and primes. I find it kind of useless. To get FF camera and not to use it for full advantage.


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ssmanak
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Oct 30, 2012 11:28 |  #15

Amfoto - thanks a ton for food for thought on 12-24 and EF 20 lenses. EF 135 is known to be excellent but not in my budget. I will be trying out 24-70 with new camera in phase 1 of upgrade. Other purchases only after gaining feel of camera and this combination.

Ps: infact just to keep my 12-24, some time i wish to wait for 7D upgrade. But 6D will suit my needs better.


ss.manak
EOS 6D ii, Canon 24-105f4 L ii, Canon 50 f1.4, Tamron 100-400 f4.5-6.3 VC, Canon 430EX ii, Canon 270 exii

  
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Need help - Lens selection for going FF
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