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FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos The Business of Photography 
Thread started 30 Oct 2012 (Tuesday) 12:45
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Venue wants to use my photo in their ad.

 
crimsonblack
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Dec 30, 2012 23:14 |  #16

it's a good deal. You get two images in a magazine and they will promote you at the venue by handing out your cards. You might ask to attend the venue they'll be handing out your cards. You can meet people and make sure they are handing out the cars.

Congrats if you decide to do it.


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Christopher ­ Steven ­ b
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Mar 22, 2013 18:40 |  #17

Just to update the thread:

The venue didn't contact me after I responded to them (basically asking them how they were using the images and suggesting I'm totally willing to discount in lieu of favoured photographer status) and completely dropped off--that was, until a couple of weeks ago.

This time around, after explaining again that photographers charge for photos used commercially, the venue seems much more receptive and understanding and flat out asked how much it would cost to license a couple of the photos. I've sent them a price list, mentioned my willingness to discount for 'preferred photographer' status and I'm waiting to hear back from them again..



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bryanlee1981
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Mar 22, 2013 18:54 |  #18

People place value on things that they pay for. Whether payment is money, effort, trade etc. I'm not a professional photography, but I do run an IT business and when it comes to things like this, I would just offer them a quote and carry on with my day. They obviously like your work. If you give them something for what could potentially amount to nothing they will value your work accordingly. If they have to pay for it then they will without a doubt place more value on the image and you as a photographer. Generally speaking, I tend to avoid the "something for nothing" clients when possible.


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skippix
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Mar 23, 2013 21:10 |  #19

Christopher Steven b wrote in post #15744757 (external link)
Just to update the thread:

The venue didn't contact me after I responded to them (basically asking them how they were using the images and suggesting I'm totally willing to discount in lieu of favoured photographer status) and completely dropped off--that was, until a couple of weeks ago.

This time around, after explaining again that photographers charge for photos used commercially, the venue seems much more receptive and understanding and flat out asked how much it would cost to license a couple of the photos. I've sent them a price list, mentioned my willingness to discount for 'preferred photographer' status and I'm waiting to hear back from them again..

cool!

one other thing to inquire about would be to put your logo on the photos in the ad. if the ad is running in a magazine that could bring you business, think about how much it would cost you to run the ad; it might be that worth a discount if you can get viable visibility.


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Christopher ­ Steven ­ b
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Mar 25, 2013 14:59 |  #20

Update !

I gave them massive discounts on 9 images they selected, sent that quote, and they responded that the fee was far out of their budget. I left room for negotiating (by licensing less images), but it seems like we've reached an impasse.

I think I've learned what I already knew: many businesses are uneducated about the value of commercial photography OR they think they can use images for next to nothing.

Any thoughts ?



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Mar 25, 2013 15:34 as a reply to  @ Christopher Steven b's post |  #21

You gave them a discount (did you explain it to them?) and left room for them to buy less.

Sometimes the distance is too great.


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Christopher ­ Steven ­ b
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Mar 25, 2013 17:00 |  #22

I did explain the discount(s): a % off for the web versions for leaving my watermark on them plus a bulk discount. I made sure to show the 'before / after'.

RDKirk wrote in post #15754386 (external link)
You gave them a discount (did you explain it to them?) and left room for them to buy less.

Sometimes the distance is too great.



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Hogloff
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Mar 25, 2013 18:23 |  #23
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Christopher Steven b wrote in post #15754240 (external link)
Update !

I gave them massive discounts on 9 images they selected, sent that quote, and they responded that the fee was far out of their budget. I left room for negotiating (by licensing less images), but it seems like we've reached an impasse.

I think I've learned what I already knew: many businesses are uneducated about the value of commercial photography OR they think they can use images for next to nothing.

Any thoughts ?

Or maybe since they are the ones running their business...they just might know what the value to them is from commercial photography. Why is it that you think you know more about their business than they do?




  
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Christopher ­ Steven ­ b
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Mar 25, 2013 18:38 |  #24

I don't claim to know-I'm inferring based on my interaction with them. After seeing my pricing sheet they asked for a quote for 9 images. I substantially discounted the fee as based on the pricing sheet and they then replied that the fee was way out of their budget. It didn't make any sense.

Edit: I take your point about my not knowing the value of the images for them (e.g. maybe they don't need to advertise; maybe they think they can get images for free elsewhere; maybe they now think my web presence with the images from that wedding is value enough for them). But given the ways they were talking about using the images (mag. advert, web advert, internal brochure, prospective client brochure, on their web site), they really seemed to see a substantial value.

Hogloff wrote in post #15755007 (external link)
Or maybe since they are the ones running their business...they just might know what the value to them is from commercial photography. Why is it that you think you know more about their business than they do?



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banquetbear
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Mar 26, 2013 02:22 |  #25

Christopher Steven b wrote in post #15754240 (external link)
I think I've learned what I already knew: many businesses are uneducated about the value of commercial photography OR they think they can use images for next to nothing.

...I think you've learnt the wrong lessons.

The venue was trying to build a relationship with you. They currently have two prefered photographer suppliers on their website and you aren't one of them.

http://www.byc.ca …c/weddings-at-byc/vendors (external link)

I'm a former conference/event/funct​ion coordinator/manager. Suppliers fall into and out of favour all the time. From the venue's point of view they had something of value to offer you.

Back in 2009 there were a number of event design companies around my local city and they all had a pretty equal share of the market and they all managed to annoy me in separate and equal ways. A new event design company started up and I heard good things about both the company and the owner, and eventually one of my clients hired her to design their event.

The owner of this company made it a point to contact me and to take me out to coffee. She found out from me all the things that the other event design companies were doing that were pains in the butt for out venue and she made a commitment not to do any of those things, then after her first event with us she not only maintained her commitment she blew our expectations out of the water. We had a client showcase coming up so I mentioned her to the other sales team members and we asked her if she would like to donate a room set up at no cost in exchange for promotion: and she leaped at the opportunity. She charmed and wowed our sales team, she charmed and wowed the clients at the showcase, and she soon became the only event designer we would ever put forward to our clients.

I left the industry soon after that: but when I started my market research to start my photography business this lady was the first one I caught up with. Her business now dominates the local market and she is so busy she hardly had enough time to have a coffee with me. Her business is a thriving success and she owes that to her outstanding service ethic and her ability to understand the best way to market her business. To give you a perspective on the amounts of money we are looking at here: my portfolio of clients was worth 10.4 million dollars per annum.

This is why business and marketing plans are so important. When the question first came up last year you should have been looking at your plan and that would have helped guide you to the right decision.

From what I can tell you are a wedding photographer. How does a single commercial sale (which you didn't actually land, because trust me the venue has no shortage of photographers that they can work with) fit in with your business plan? Its all very well to get all high and mighty over the "value of photography": but you are now known at that venue as "that guy." In my time in the industry I've seen vendors blacklisted for more trivial stuff.

I'm not saying don't charge commercial rates: you absolutely should when you need to. But you need to read between the lines. They have a couple of preferred photographers. They have a number of wedding images on their site that aren't bad. From their perspective they were "auditioning" you. You chose not to bite. This is how business works. You gave a quote, they turned it down. Welcome to commercial photography. Don't get all butt hurt that they didn't want to pay your price and don't blame them because they chose not to and "aren't educated."

My suggestion to you would be to revisit your business plan. Think about where you are positioned in the market and where you want to be. This won't be the first time a venue will ask you to help them out. Have a think now how you will handle it next time it comes up: and think about it in terms of what is best for your business development.


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banquetbear
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Mar 26, 2013 02:52 as a reply to  @ banquetbear's post |  #26

...just wanted to add one more thing: in the events business relationships are everything.

Once we found trusted vendors we tended to stick with them because it is our reputation and our pay check that is on the line when things go tits up. My worst day in the industry was when I had to drag my manager upstairs to a meeting with a client: and that client was in tears because every vendor and the staff supervising the event had let her down. That was such a horrible day because there was nothing we could say to placate her because she was absolutely right and we were absolutely wrong. I had done my job to the best of my abilities: but the people I had entrusted to do the job had let me down. We had an indefensible position. We just had to sit and listen while the client listed failure after failure and by the end of it we were nearly in tears as well.

It only takes a single day like that day to convince me that cheapest is not always best and that opinion is generally shared industry wide. We used vendors that made our life easier and made us look good.

Don't underestimate the value to your business of building healthy relationships with vendors for your business. If the sales team like and trust you: they will get you work.


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ultimachi
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Mar 28, 2013 14:26 |  #27

banquetbear wrote in post #15756254 (external link)
...I think you've learnt the wrong lessons.

The venue was trying to build a relationship with you. They currently have two prefered photographer suppliers on their website and you aren't one of them.

http://www.byc.ca …c/weddings-at-byc/vendors (external link)

I'm a former conference/event/funct​ion coordinator/manager. Suppliers fall into and out of favour all the time. From the venue's point of view they had something of value to offer you.

Back in 2009 there were a number of event design companies around my local city and they all had a pretty equal share of the market and they all managed to annoy me in separate and equal ways. A new event design company started up and I heard good things about both the company and the owner, and eventually one of my clients hired her to design their event.

The owner of this company made it a point to contact me and to take me out to coffee. She found out from me all the things that the other event design companies were doing that were pains in the butt for out venue and she made a commitment not to do any of those things, then after her first event with us she not only maintained her commitment she blew our expectations out of the water. We had a client showcase coming up so I mentioned her to the other sales team members and we asked her if she would like to donate a room set up at no cost in exchange for promotion: and she leaped at the opportunity. She charmed and wowed our sales team, she charmed and wowed the clients at the showcase, and she soon became the only event designer we would ever put forward to our clients.

I left the industry soon after that: but when I started my market research to start my photography business this lady was the first one I caught up with. Her business now dominates the local market and she is so busy she hardly had enough time to have a coffee with me. Her business is a thriving success and she owes that to her outstanding service ethic and her ability to understand the best way to market her business. To give you a perspective on the amounts of money we are looking at here: my portfolio of clients was worth 10.4 million dollars per annum.

This is why business and marketing plans are so important. When the question first came up last year you should have been looking at your plan and that would have helped guide you to the right decision.

From what I can tell you are a wedding photographer. How does a single commercial sale (which you didn't actually land, because trust me the venue has no shortage of photographers that they can work with) fit in with your business plan? Its all very well to get all high and mighty over the "value of photography": but you are now known at that venue as "that guy." In my time in the industry I've seen vendors blacklisted for more trivial stuff.

I'm not saying don't charge commercial rates: you absolutely should when you need to. But you need to read between the lines. They have a couple of preferred photographers. They have a number of wedding images on their site that aren't bad. From their perspective they were "auditioning" you. You chose not to bite. This is how business works. You gave a quote, they turned it down. Welcome to commercial photography. Don't get all butt hurt that they didn't want to pay your price and don't blame them because they chose not to and "aren't educated."

My suggestion to you would be to revisit your business plan. Think about where you are positioned in the market and where you want to be. This won't be the first time a venue will ask you to help them out. Have a think now how you will handle it next time it comes up: and think about it in terms of what is best for your business development.

Great insight. I appreciate the time you took to type that up!


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Mar 28, 2013 14:49 |  #28

ultimachi wrote in post #15766002 (external link)
Great insight. I appreciate the time you took to type that up!

+1 - Great information - thanks, I'll keep this in mind!


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Mar 28, 2013 15:09 |  #29

banquetbear hit it right on!

I shoot youth sports team & individual photos. In addition, photography is a part-time job for me.
In my area, the leagues don't contract with any individual photographer. They have in the past and they don't like being in the position to 1) tell coaches which photographer they have to use & 2) tell other photographers they aren't allowed on site.
So, instead, they will recommend a photographer to the coaches. Believe me... this recommendation is as close to a contract as you can get in this area. I've seen leagues recommend low quality photographers in the past (before I started my business and actually the reason I started my business) and yes, they got the vast majority of the teams.
Do I give them "free" stuff in return for them recommending me? You bet I do! It's called a business relationship... I do for them, they do for me. Without that relationship, I would miss out on thousands of dollars per year.


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Mar 29, 2013 09:04 |  #30

banquetbear wrote in post #15756295 (external link)
...just wanted to add one more thing: in the events business relationships are everything.

Once we found trusted vendors we tended to stick with them because it is our reputation and our pay check that is on the line when things go tits up. My worst day in the industry was when I had to drag my manager upstairs to a meeting with a client: and that client was in tears because every vendor and the staff supervising the event had let her down. That was such a horrible day because there was nothing we could say to placate her because she was absolutely right and we were absolutely wrong. I had done my job to the best of my abilities: but the people I had entrusted to do the job had let me down. We had an indefensible position. We just had to sit and listen while the client listed failure after failure and by the end of it we were nearly in tears as well.

It only takes a single day like that day to convince me that cheapest is not always best and that opinion is generally shared industry wide. We used vendors that made our life easier and made us look good.

Don't underestimate the value to your business of building healthy relationships with vendors for your business. If the sales team like and trust you: they will get you work.

As one more piece of information.

My mom was in the wedding business for years. She was a wedding coordinator before there was such a thing. She was simply the lady with the Rolodex others could only dream of...the result of 30 years as a Wedding Cake designer.

If you let her down she would never suggest you again. To make matters worse, as an example, if the person who pissed her off was a florist, they could say goodbye to not only the flowers for the cake she might be making, but also to the flowers for the rest of the wedding. Depending on the venue that florist could say goodbye to any more business in that building until they got a new event manager. You see the venue managers trusted my mom and if someone had let her or a client down at some point the venue wasn't about to take a chance.

How did a 5' grandma-looking lady who barely spoke English wield this kind of power?

Trust and relationships. Period, end of story. While she didn't have a business plan she had business acumen coming out of here ears. Of course to this day she would just say she liked doing what she did and was good with people.

I say the different vendors and venue managers were afraid of her. :D


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Venue wants to use my photo in their ad.
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