CMYK question -- RAW, Post Processing & Printing in photography-on-the.net forums

Crypto
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Jan 03, 2006 16:15 as a reply to @ post 1046354 | #31

Robert_Lay wrote:
Changing from use of sRGB to use of Adobe RGB will have no bearing on the result.

When you say that you changed your color mgmt in PSPX to Adobe 1998 and CMYK US Web Coated (SWOP), that sounds vaguely familiar, but it's not the words I need to hear. Either you did an explicit step that CHANGED the embedded profile from RGB to CMYK or you didn't. That's the issue, as I see it. If such an operation were done under a Color Managed system, it should NOT have caused you to see any change in color on the screen.
I actually went under FILE, COLOR MGMT, COLOR WORKING SPACE and selected the CMYK profile.

I am now going to capture your last two posted images and see if I can see any EXIF data that would tell me what profiles are embedded therein.
That was a bad idea

. I converted them back to JPG to compress them under the 100K limit. They were only to display the color differences when saving in CMYK. sorry about that
I will get back to you as soon as I check on that.

see comments in red

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Jan 03, 2006 16:17 as a reply to @ post 1046381 | #32

Robert_Lay wrote:
I just checked those last two images.

Both images have file info that tells me they are both in RGB Color Mode. NEITHER ONE IS IN CMYK MODE. That tells me that you are not doing the conversion to CMYK. I don't really know what you are doing in your last step, but you are NOT converting to CMYK mode. You will have to look closer at what your program tells you to do to get into CMYK mode. Apparently you are doing some kind of proofing. I could go into proofing in PSCS, but I know nothing about how it's done in PSP. As you might imagine, the POTN tends to be Photoshop centric, as well as Canon centric. No reflection on PSP, I used the older PSP versions for years until I finally got Photoshopped - it's just that when I went for my novice training in Color Management, it was in PSCS - Hi!

P.S. - I keep wondering when the real Color Management Guru's will step in and explain what it is that you have to do in PSPX.
Edit:
BTW, when I do a soft proof in PSCS2, I "do" see a slight shift in two of those color bars (purple and blue get a little darker) - but it's not hardly enough to see in static images.

Sorry Robert, These images were converted back to JPG to get them under the 100K limit. I should hav ementioned that. I did save the discolored one using the CMYK profile.

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Crypto
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Jan 03, 2006 16:23 as a reply to @ post 1048508 | #33

UncleDoug wrote:
You were doing just fine! Didn't want to hijack.....

You are dead on about the CMYK conversion issue AND the non-color mamaged reality.

I have not used PSPX but from playing with the images, an assiging of a CMYK profile has to be going on.
Both have no profile assigned and thus none embedded.
Assignment of sRGB to the first image brings things into line fairly well on my monitor(expected because his "workflow" is based on sRGB). The same profile and just about any other assigned to the second, "bad color", image looks bad. Since under PSCS2 you can not assign a CMYK profile to an RGB image, I then assigned the smallest-gamut-profile I had, Noritsu for Gordon's photography in Reno, to the "good" image and colors when to hell-in-a-handbasket.

As to the flavor of profile, RGB vs. CMYK based, this should not make any diff. unless he is double-color-managing the print session, i.e. performing conversions with the print dialogue/driver in PSPX and in the printer software itself.
Allot of inkjet printer profiles these days are RGB based to leverage the extended gammuts offered by 6, 7 and 8 color inkjets without having to produce a n-color profile, where n is the number of colors/channels your printer has, that requires an EXPENSIVE RIP or to avoid having to use "secret sauce" to make the printers perform(which makes the profiles relatively invalid in the strict ICC sense).

This was the process for the image of the house:
I changed my setting in RSE to Adobe 1998 and created a 16 bit tiff. Changed my color mgmt in PSPX to Adobe 1998 and CMYK US Web Coated (SWOP). Opened the image in PSPX, saved as CMYK US Web Coated (SWOP). Then converted them back to JPG for resizing purposes.
The images of the business cards in the begining of the thread had been processed using sRGB workspace then when I saved them, I used the KODAK CMYK profile. The color differences are significant. BTW- these were also saved as JPGs to resize and comnpress under the 100K limit to post.

Thanks for the help and sorry for the confusion.

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Robert_Lay

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Jan 03, 2006 17:23 as a reply to @ post 1045399 | #34

Crypto wrote:
Ok, I'll give this a try. I'm not sure what you mean by workflow. Workflow in how I processed the images or how I print them?
Maybe this will help.
I use PaintShop proX.
This is my Working space and my Color mgmt. sorry if its hard to read

BTW- I will call the printer, but I would like to learn a bit first. So thanks for any guidance

Going way back to your screen shot of PSPX Color Management ---
Is the "BJ Color Printer Profile", which is the selection for Printer Profile, used at all in this processing? I don't see any explicit mention of it.

My only other thought at this point is that it may not be appropriate to use the CMYK version of the file to judge how it will look. I'm not sure how you are utilizing the soft proofing features of PSPX.

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Jan 03, 2006 17:46 as a reply to @ Crypto's post | #35

Crypto wrote:
This was the process for the image of the house:
I changed my setting in RSE to Adobe 1998 and created a 16 bit tiff. Changed my color mgmt in PSPX to Adobe 1998 and CMYK US Web Coated (SWOP). Opened the image in PSPX, saved as CMYK US Web Coated (SWOP). Then converted them back to JPG for resizing purposes.
The images of the business cards in the begining of the thread had been processed using sRGB workspace then when I saved them, I used the KODAK CMYK profile. The color differences are significant. BTW- these were also saved as JPGs to resize and comnpress under the 100K limit to post.

Thanks for the help and sorry for the confusion.

Hm.
This sounds relatively "sound" but something is still not right.
When you convert, colors should not deteriorate that bad. Color mamangement is supposed to compensate when converting so that this sort of thing does not happen.
But sadly to say I have not used PSPX at all so I don't know the idiocyncracies of this application, especially under Windows.

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UncleDoug

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Jan 03, 2006 17:58 as a reply to @ UncleDoug's post | #36

Did some poking around on Correll's site.
There are some PDF's regarding PSP color mamagement...but they are abiguous at best and rather misleading.

Personally I'd do some poking around into how to CONVERT from one space to another in PSP.
Ah....google is my friend, google is my friend, google is my friend.

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Jan 03, 2006 19:07 as a reply to @ Robert_Lay's post | #37

Robert_Lay wrote:
Going way back to your screen shot of PSPX Color Management ---
Is the "BJ Color Printer Profile", which is the selection for Printer Profile, used at all in this processing? I don't see any explicit mention of it.

My only other thought at this point is that it may not be appropriate to use the CMYK version of the file to judge how it will look. I'm not sure how you are utilizing the soft proofing features of PSPX.

That has ended up as my default. I've never changed that.
I rarely print from my image software. Normally use the Canon Print Driver from Windows.

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Crypto
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Jan 03, 2006 19:10 as a reply to @ UncleDoug's post | #38

UncleDoug wrote:
Did some poking around on Correll's site.
There are some PDF's regarding PSP color mamagement...but they are abiguous at best and rather misleading.

Personally I'd do some poking around into how to CONVERT from one space to another in PSP.
Ah....google is my friend, google is my friend, google is my friend.

ahhh YES, google! Thank you for the help. I'll dig a little more.

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Robert_Lay

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Jan 03, 2006 21:45 as a reply to @ Crypto's post | #39

Crypto wrote:
That has ended up as my default. I've never changed that.
I rarely print from my image software. Normally use the Canon Print Driver from Windows.

Taking everything we've already gone over and re-digesting it, plus something I read just this evening from Bruce Fraser's new book has got me to thinking of a problem he mentions, and that is the possibility that you are inadvertently making two separate color conversions for your printer. That would explain why the change you are seeing is so exaggerated.

I would suggest that you drop this interest in the CMYK aspect of it altogether and see what happens when you are using only the default printer profile, because I think you are getting two color conversions being applied one after the other.

Excerpt from Real World Photoshop CS2, page 225:
"If you use Print with Preview to convert the image for output, make very sure that you don't have another conversion specified in the Print dialog box--otherwise you'll get a double correction and a nasty print."

Sure looks like a similar situation, doesn't it?

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Robert_Lay

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Jan 05, 2006 09:37 | #40

I have just posted a tutorial on Soft Proofing and Printing in the Tips and Tutorials Sticky under RAW, Post Processing.
It will also be available at
http://www.zaffora.com …gUnderColorManagement.htm

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