Alternative to HSS in bright sunlight?

Since my camera's max sync speed is 250, and my triggers (Yongnuo) don't support HSS, would the alternative be to use an ND filter?

Yes, use an ND filter strong enough to bring the ambient light down to within your flash sync speed.

Obviously you will then also need enough flash power to overcome that when lighting your subject

Corser1 wrote in post #15282140
Since my camera's max sync speed is 250, and my triggers (Yongnuo) don't support HSS, would the alternative be to use an ND filter?

Some Yongnuo transceivers will support HSS with your 5Dii ........ the YN-622C. See the following guide

https://docs.google.co​m …7OmmGIg0gMVFpqN​kpBYXBHajA

page 4 gives compatibility.

Malcolm

if you are worried about money buy some yn622's

i would use a cheap hypersync trigger over using a cheap nd filter anydays

Corser1 wrote in post #15282140
Since my camera's max sync speed is 250, and my triggers (Yongnuo) don't support HSS, would the alternative be to use an ND filter?

Shoot at f16 and ISO100. Now if you want to shoot wider then yes, use a ND filter.

HSS simply allows the use of faster shutter speed while still syncing to flash. However it causes flash power to be reduced in a major way, reducing flash range significantly!

The way to slow down the shutter to X-sync speed while keeping the lens aperture the same is to use ND filter. However, it reduces the effective flash power at the same time, although the flash itself still outputs full power, flash range is still reduced due to the ND filter.

To increase flash range, in either of the above cases, one has to increase the number of flash units that are pointed at the subject... but it takes 4 times as many flash units to offset the decrease in range caused by -2EV ND filter or caused when HSS (and -2EV is the minimum loss--but often the loss due to HSS is even greater) is in use!

Wilt wrote in post #15284020
The way to slow down the shutter to X-sync speed while keeping the lens aperture the same is to use ND filter. However, it reduces the effective flash power at the same time, although the flash itself still outputs full power, flash range is still reduced due to the ND filter.

Using an ND doesn't reduce range at all.

Beyond x-sync the flash has no range, because it simply doesn't work.

Adding an ND to a camera already set to its max x-sync speed and opening the aperture to compensate for the ND loses no flash range at all.

ND filters affect ambient and flash equally. When your shutter speed is maxed out up to your x-sync and your flash is at full power providing maximum range, all that adding an ND will do is provide the facility to open your aperture wider to the exposure factor of the ND. Lighting ratio of ambient/flash and flash range stays exactly the same.

If you desire to keep your aperture and use a longer shutter speed, your range will reduce then - but whats the point in that - you could have just turned down your flash power?

PhotographersWorldWide wrote in post #15284307
Using an ND doesn't reduce range at all.

Beyond x-sync the flash has no range, because it simply doesn't work.

Adding an ND to a camera already set to its max x-sync speed and opening the aperture to compensate for the ND loses no flash range at all.

ND filters affect ambient and flash equally. When your shutter speed is maxed out up to your x-sync and your flash is at full power providing maximum range, all that adding an ND will do is provide the facility to open your aperture wider to the exposure factor of the ND. Lighting ratio of ambient/flash and flash range stays exactly the same.

If you desire to keep your aperture and use a longer shutter speed, your range will reduce then - but whats the point in that - you could have just turned down your flash power?

Hum, some one trying to teach to the master.

PhotographersWorldWide wrote in post #15284307
Using an ND doesn't reduce range at all.

Beyond x-sync the flash has no range, because it simply doesn't work.

Adding an ND to a camera already set to its max x-sync speed and opening the aperture to compensate for the ND loses no flash range at all.

True enough, practically speaking. Going from Zero flash distance to some flash distance is increasing, in a manner of speaking.

PhotographersWorldWide wrote in post #15284307
ND filters affect ambient and flash equally. When your shutter speed is maxed out up to your x-sync and your flash is at full power providing maximum range, all that adding an ND will do is provide the facility to open your aperture wider to the exposure factor of the ND. Lighting ratio of ambient/flash and flash range stays exactly the same.

If you desire to keep your aperture and use a longer shutter speed, your range will reduce then - but whats the point in that - you could have just turned down your flash power?

But if I have f/2 on my lens at night, when my shutter speed is 1/60 already, and I put a -3EV ND filter on the lens...

• my starting point with the 580EX flash was GN130 (assuming ISO 100 and 50mm lens coverage on FF) so my max distance at f/2 is 65'.
  
• Yet when I put the -3EV ND filter on the lens the max distance is effectively determined by f/5.6 (f/2 and -3EV ND),
  or a limit of 23'.
  

Using HSS does nothing more than physically cripple your flash output, which does reduce range as well as effectiveness.

Adding an ND filter retains the full benefit of your flash and ensures that you use the maximum output it can provide in the situation where the highest output is mostly likely to be needed.

HSS, containing the words 'High' and 'Speed' seems to be used because people think it has some special invisible power. Certainly, flash power is reduced to render it almost invisible - where realistically more flash power would be the answer to the problem being addressed.

PhotographersWorldWide wrote in post #15284307
If you desire to keep your aperture and use a longer shutter speed, your range will reduce then - but whats the point in that - you could have just turned down your flash power?

Surely the point is that the OP is needing to get their shutter speeds down to flash synchable levels but the ambient light is too strong. Therefore, by definition, they need to obtain a longer shutter speed and so need to use a ND filter. Turning down the flash power won't make any difference to the shutter speed, so what is the point in THAT?

Wilt wrote in post #15284364
But if I have f/2 on my lens at night, when my shutter speed is 1/60 already, and I put a -3EV ND filter on the lens...

• my starting point with the 580EX flash was GN130 (assuming ISO 100 and 50mm lens coverage on FF) so my max distance at f/2 is 65'.
  
• Yet when I put the -3EV ND filter on the lens the max distance is effectively determined by f/5.6 (f/2 and -3EV ND),
  or a limit of 23'.
  

Face it, depending upon circumstance, both of us are right! Me, literally; you, figuratively

Next time I need to turn my flash power down in a coal mine, I won't bother - I'll just add an ND filter to my lens because thats a more DIFFICULT way to do it, more POINTLESS as well as STUPID !

Talk about misleading when discussing an alternative to HSS !

After adding your -3EV filter increase your ISO by +3EV and you get exactly the same range at exactly the same settings.

sandpiper wrote in post #15284400
Surely the point is that the OP is needing to get their shutter speeds down to flash synchable levels but the ambient light is too strong. Therefore, by definition, they need to obtain a longer shutter speed and so need to use a ND filter. Turning down the flash power won't make any difference to the shutter speed, so what is the point in THAT?

What is the point in that EXACTLY?? I was replying to an answer incorporating shooting AT NIGHT !

Only HSS 'turns down the flash power'. It is totally unnecessary, and I wouldn't suggest it.

The OP never said he needs to get his shutter speeds DOWN. He might want to get his aperture WIDER. Either way, you have the wrong end of the stick and are putting the cart before the horse.

Shutter speed and Aperture work in tandem. Ambient light is never too strong, only the choice to use an inappropriate exposure combination beyond the physical capability of the camera. (thats the photographers problem - and more it seem are impressed by 'High' and 'Speed' without understanding what it means). These are all the same:

1/4000 - f2.8
1/2000 - f4
1/1000 - 5.6
1/500 - f8
1/250-X - f11
1/125-X - f16

You can only sync at 2 of the combinations. Anything higher than 1/250s and you lose sync. or you lose power, or you lose range.

You have ONE fixed maximum output value for your flash at full power and that provides the limit of your range and the limit of your flash exposure.

You need to work within the limits of your equipment and your flash. Every time, the maximum limit is when you use your maximum x-sync speed with your maximum flash output. If your flash is too strong, turn it down. If you can turn your flash down to 1/8 and are happy - you will manage with HSS. If you want a wider aperture and your flash is required to work at any output greater than 1/8 you add an ND filter.

Hypersync solutions which can increase ambient/flash ratios can be useful if you can live with the compromise, or disguise its faults.

PhotographersWorldWide wrote in post #15284477
Next time I need to turn my flash power down in a coal mine, I won't bother - I'll just add an ND filter to my lens because thats a more DIFFICULT way to do it, more POINTLESS as well as STUPID !

Talk about misleading when discussing an alternative to HSS !

After adding your -3EV filter increase your ISO by +3EV and you get exactly the same range at exactly the same settings.

Let us assume that ambient is 1/400 f/4 at ISO 100, bare lens no filter...too fast for fill flash.
When we put the -2ND filter in front, our exposure is now 1/100 f/4 at ISO 100, and suitable for fill flash use.
If we up our ISO to 400 to compensate the use of ND, our ambient reading is once again 1/400 f/4 at ISO 400. Relative to using flash, you have defeated the reason for using the -2EV ND filter, haven't you? So why do that?!

PhotographersWorldWide wrote in post #15284590
What is the point in that EXACTLY?? I was replying to an answer incorporating shooting AT NIGHT !

Only HSS 'turns down the flash power'. It is totally unnecessary, and I wouldn't suggest it.

The OP never said he needs to get his shutter speeds DOWN. He might want to get his aperture WIDER. Either way, you have the wrong end of the stick and are putting the cart before the horse.

Okay, you've lost me now.

You were replying to an answer about "shooting AT NIGHT" ?? - I cannot see ANY reference to that in the post you quoted from, and were replying to, nor does your reply make any reference to shooting at night. Where did shooting at night come into it?

Can I also point out the thread title? "Alternative to HSS in bright sunlight"

The OP didn't specifically say that he needed to get his shutter speeds down, no. But what else is he likely to have meant (taking into account the thread title) when he states that his "max synch is 1/250th and he cannot use HSS, what is his alternative, use an ND?", other than he needs another way to allow the flash to synch in bright ambient, and would using a ND to slow the shutter speed work?


One of us has the wrong end of the stick I agree, but you are the only one banging on about using less flash power instead of HSS (which he doesn't have), shooting at night, maybe he wants to get his aperture WIDER etc. None of which have ANY relevance to the question being asked, nor do your replies make ANY suggestion about bringing the shutter speed within synch speed when shooting in bright sunlight.

Unless the OP has posed the question in a very misleading way, their options are to use a SMALLER aperture to slow the shutter speed for the ambient (which I would presume they have already done as far as possible whilst keeping within the range they wish to use), to use the lowest ISO possible (again, I would presume they already are) or to use a ND filter.

If they were shooting at night, I doubt that there would be any worries about having to use too fast a shutter speed to synch with the flash due to the bright sunlight.